American Exceptionalism is the Prussian Nationalism of the 21st century. It is difficult to believe anyone would want to emulate the Prussians; modern Germans certainly do not.
But one thing you can say for the Prussians: they at least built a statue to a national hero, Hermann (known to the Romans as Arminius), who, if mythical, was at least a German.
American Exceptionalists on the other hand like to erect statues to a Jewish peasant who was executed on charges of sedition more than 2,000 years ago and in another country entirely. It is towards a mythology built up around that man that Republican patriotism increasingly revolves. And I am not talking about the Bible; I am talking about Mythic America.
When did patriotism become identical to religion? When did every war have to be a holy war?
For the ancient Greeks, though city states shared a common religion, it was not. Even identification with the polis, or city state, was not the end all for the Greek patriot, who recognized a greater concept of “Greekness” and the common good. And even foreigners could become Greeks. The European Enlightenment had more in common with Socrates, who saw himself as a citizen of the world, than with Moses, who saw everyone outside his little tent as less than human, let alone fellow citizens.
According to the Republican worldview, of course, the true Enlightenment was the Christian Middle Ages and the Enlightenment the rest of us recognize inaugurated the Age of Satan. In this topsy-turvy world, foreigners are only the tip of the iceberg of who cannot be Americans.
The Republican worldview is home to many oddities. Consider that the First Amendment of the Constitution, what is known as the “free exercise clause” presumes that the United States will consist of more than simply Christians when it says, “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof.” The Constitution also forbids (Article VI, section 3) religious tests to hold office, meaning, of course, that a person’s religion is irrelevant to politics and by extension, citizenship and patriotism. You can believe anything you want or nothing at all and be a patriotic American.
Not so fast, say conservatives, who argue that the Free Exercise clause does not apply to Muslims, and that only Christians are fit to hold public office and that atheists aren’t really citizens at all. They even argue that Old Testament law should be legislated, so we can all enjoy its anti-constitutional clauses.
Conservatives act on the assumption that the Constitution, which they claim is based on the Ten Commandments, demands a religious test.
Sarah Palin argues that our inalienable rights come from God, but in the Ten Commandments God does not bestow rights. He bestows restrictions. There are no rights in the Old Testament. Put them side by side and you will see the Decalogue and the Constitution have nothing in common.
Never mind the contradictions. We are assured by them that America was founded by Christians and for Christians.
No one else need apply.
This is how it works: only Christians (and the presumption is that these Christians are white) can be citizens – and patriotic. Everyone else is lumped together under the heading “other” – a group that is considered anti-American, terrorists, or terrorist-friendly, and is presumed to have as a goal the destruction of America.
A true patriot, according to Ann Coulter, wants to “invade their countries, kill their leaders and convert them to Christianity.” Anyone who disagrees is simply an appeaser, a traitor or an idiot.
The lesson couldn’t be any clearer: If you don’t want to invade foreign countries and force them to believe what you believe, you’re a terrorist and a traitor.
Of course it helps to be a “real” American, that is, from the country or from a small town and not from a big foreigner-infested city. And it stands to reason you can’t be gay or lesbian, or a secular humanist or a liberal or a progressive or a pagan or a feminist or an environmentalist – and no Muslim can possibly be a patriot because every mosque out there is a dagger aimed at the heart of America.
Evil Sharia Law! Never mind that there is no difference between the Old Testament Law these people want to force down our throats and Sharia Law.
Everyone who isn’t a Christian American wants to destroy America – Islam, the Homosexual Agenda, feminists and pagans and others who all hatch plots daily to bring down America.
The problem is that none of this is true; none of the Republican mythology has any basis in fact. And the comparison is impossible to ignore: the little Nazi bund gathering in their beer halls plotting to take back “their” country, a Germany which had no similarity to any previous Germany, one that existed only in their minds, just as our Republicans want to take back a country that has no similarity to any previous America.
Republicans accuse everyone else of being traitors, but you can’t be guilty of treason against something that exists only in another’s imagination; you can’t be a traitor to an America that has never and does not now exist.
It is to that Mythic America their own patriotism is directed.
But is it even possible to speak of patriotism under such circumstances? If treason is impossible, can you be patriotic towards something that has never actually existed except in fevered imaginings?
Can patriotism be directed against the Constitution by denying people free expression and equal rights? Can patriotism be for secession from the Union? Can patriotism be for ignoring federal laws and regulations whenever you like? Do patriots fly Confederate flags instead of American flags?
The answer is no. We have another word for that: treason.


Steve Elliott ~alapoet~
Aug. 15th, 2010 at 10:30 am
The article itself is squarely on target, which made it all the more jarring to get to the end and see a Dick Armey Tea Party ad.
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Sarah Jones
Aug. 15th, 2010 at 3:25 pm
Hraf did a great job with this!
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Shiva (Moderator)
Aug. 15th, 2010 at 2:58 pm
The republicans need to wrap the flag around their religion, or wrap their religion around the flag is terribly disconcerting. People may be christians but I do not think they want their church in the government or determining what the government does.
We do know they are doing this for votes trying to win back the religious right. But they are using it for hate and are tearing their religion apart as well as the constitution. I have never seen a political party thrusting so much hate, mistruths and bigotry of all types(gays, blacks etc) into our society. They have blood on their hands and they dont care. Surely the people of the US can tell the difference between everyones basic rights and the republican bastardization of them?
I am learning to dislike the word patriot. Anyone who calls himself one is in general making themselves out to be something they are not.
Excellent article. Enjoyed it.
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JenniferInMO
Aug. 15th, 2010 at 8:40 pm
“People may be christians but I do not think they want their church in the government or determining what the government does.”
I think the people Hraf is talking about would LOVE a theocracy, but only if it was the “real” Christian religion, i.e. whatever the speaker follows.
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Jeff
Aug. 16th, 2010 at 9:21 am
My kids participated in a Vacation Bible School ceremony last Friday night. The preacher, himself, said that we were fighting a holy war, and that we needed to support the troops, in order to bring Christianity to the world. Plus, at the beginning of the event, the congregation was told to say the ‘Pledge of Allegiance’ followed by the Pledge to the Christian Flag, followed by the Pledge to the Bible.
I was deeply disturbed.
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Hrafnkell Haraldsson
Aug. 16th, 2010 at 9:28 am
That is deeply disturbing, Jeff. I didn’t even know there were pledges to the Christian flag (or that there WAS a Christian flag), let alone to the Bible. Those facts are disturbing enough.
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Rev Laura
Aug. 16th, 2010 at 4:50 pm
Please remember that not all Christians are like this…. that the voices to which this article is responding, while the loudest, do not represent all of Christendom. I assure you that there are Christians and even Christian ministers who are also disturbed by this marriage of Christianity and Patriotism as some sort of litmus test for being American. I can speak for myself, and assure you that I have colleagues who respect the separation of church and state. I wish you the best in finding a community of faith that can speak to the faith needs of you and your family without making you pass a test of patriotism before you’re allowed to continue worshiping with them.
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Anne
Sep. 16th, 2010 at 8:51 am
I have always known that there are Christians who do not mix politics and religion, and who are genuinely devout. Mixing these two things always produces a toxic brew, and it’s an indictment of those who cynically exploit religion while mocking their religious followers behind their backs.
The people promoting the Christian religion as patriotism have given patriotism a bad name. Actually, what they are promoting is a blind, unthinking jingoism that is violent and regressive, just as the Crusades were. They wrap themselves in the mantles of the flag and the church, while pretending a moral superiority they do not possess. Actually, the word that best describes them is demagogues, and they always thrive best during economic downturns. That’s because they find scapegoats to demonize like racial minorities, legal or illegal immigrants (especially if they’re non-white), Muslims, welfare recipients, Democrats, and the unemployed. Their practice of “religion” and “patriotism” is self-righteous, self-centered, and willfully ignorant of the world outside their insular bubbles. Their version of patriotism is suspect, since it feeds on hatred and divisions, so yes, it is treasonous.
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Frank Gibson
Aug. 16th, 2010 at 3:53 pm
Jeff,
I cannot speak to what the pastor said being that I was not there, but if your kids were at a Vacation Bible School what did you expect your kids to hear? The Pledge to what…the Koran? I would like to know why that is disturbing. This is not a public place…this is a Christian Church I would assume…that you chose to send your kids to. Again what did you expect? Side note…I hope your kids enjoyed themselves.
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Sarah Jones
Aug. 16th, 2010 at 4:27 pm
You’re not sure what’s upsetting about claiming we’re fighting a holy war?
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C.L.
Aug. 15th, 2010 at 4:22 pm
Interesting post! Thanks.
You posed two excellent questions which every American should be asking themselves and discussing with others:
“When did patriotism become identical to religion? When did every war have to be a holy war?”
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Anonymous
Aug. 16th, 2010 at 8:29 am
I’m guessing patriotism became identical to religion when our ancestors came over from Great Brittain to escape tyranny and the Church of England. See their idea is to have freedom of worship. The Church of England at the time had a hand in everything that the citizen did.
Patriotism became identical to religion because religion is the reason that patriots formed to fight against the British flag. Patriotism is love and devotion to one’s country. Why were they devoted to this Country? Because they felt it important enough to break away from England and form their own way of life.
Incidentally, in researching the topic freedom of religion seems to be more like they were looking for freedom of worship. At the time, there were no muslims or other religion besides Christianity. Why then would the “patriots” come over to America and defend their freedom to the death. Because they wanted freedom to practice “Christianity” the way they wanted not by having to listen to the Church of England.
This is why our money still says “In God We Trust” not in Allah. At least until Obama’s done with it.
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Dave
Aug. 16th, 2010 at 9:20 am
No anonymous. They meant freedom of religion. While there were few Muslims in the colonies there were certainly Jews and deists. As is common you are also overblowing the importance of settlers fleeing the Church of England from an important minority to making it sound like almost everyone. In fact that was only important to the early settlement of New England. Otherwise land, opportunity and less government were the dominant pull factors.
The main reason for the non-establishment and free exercise clauses of the Constitution were not so much the plight of the Pilgrims, but the English Civil War. A few generations before 1789 the English had slaughtered each other over the role of religion in government and the question of what church to establish. The Founding Fathers wisely headed off that debate by answering “none” and “none”. Conservatives are strict constructionists, so lets look at the text. Does it say “Free exercise of Christianity”?
As for “In God We Trust”, well it is in English and Allah is the Arabic word for God, so…. Anyway the courts that have upheld in God we trust have done so exactly because it is vague. For a Hindu the god they trust could be Brahma, for a Muslim Allah, for a Jew Yahweh. It is exactly because it does not say “In Jesus we Trust” or “In the Christian God” that it remains on the money
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C.L.
Aug. 16th, 2010 at 5:25 pm
Anonymous, you’re making the sophomoric and false argument that history is equivalent to our Constitution.
My ancestors immigrated to the US in 1870 to escape religious persecution in their homeland. They came here precisely because of our country’s constitutional granting of freedom of religion, not because their religious beliefs were identical to those folks arriving from Great Britain previously.
My patriotism springs from a loyalty and devotion to our unique constitution and the freedoms it guarantees for everyone, regardless of religion.
Your misguided attempt to meld religion and patriotism into a single concept is a primary move towards the establishment of fascism in America.
“When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross.” (Sinclair Lewis, 1935)
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glasses
Aug. 15th, 2010 at 8:52 pm
The article itself is reallysquarely on target, i think, which made it all the more jarring to get to the end and see a Dick Armey Tea Party ad there?
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Edward
Aug. 16th, 2010 at 7:16 am
Hit the nail head on The GOP if allowed will destroy America.
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Anonymous
Aug. 16th, 2010 at 8:33 am
Looks like Obama is doing a pretty good job himself. If you compare America from now in contrast of when it was founded. I would say it’s pretty well destroyed.
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Hrafnkell Haraldsson
Aug. 16th, 2010 at 9:29 am
Make a cogent and relevant argument, Anonymous. I challenge you.
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Boscoe
Aug. 16th, 2010 at 2:51 pm
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Boscoe
Aug. 16th, 2010 at 2:53 pm
(Woo, that didn’t work… guess this site doesn’t like certain characters… lemme try it again:)
…crickets…
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Mikkyfinn
Aug. 16th, 2010 at 8:30 am
Unfortunately you used so many big words I don’t think any of your detractors will understand it.
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Anonymous
Aug. 16th, 2010 at 8:52 am
Oh I’m sorry you and your liberal friends don’t understand words over 5 characters.
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Hrafnkell Haraldsson
Aug. 16th, 2010 at 9:31 am
Are you basing that on Sarah Palin’s hand notes, Anonymous? Or do ad hominem attacks suffice for the right? You don’t actually have to advance an argument, just reject and criticize?
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Boscoe
Aug. 16th, 2010 at 2:54 pm
Mmm… I loves me a good rhetorical question! ;)
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Frank
Aug. 16th, 2010 at 9:49 am
You sir are an idiot.
You dont understand the ideals of conservatism at all. to say republicans dont believe you can be gay an american is like saying liberals just want to turn our kids gay with their sex ed programs. You’re not adding to the conversation you’re screaming fire in a crowded theatre. Here’s true conservatism.
Conservatism believes that everyone is equal. There are no people with rights to privilage, but all should have equal opportunities to acheive all the greatness their potential allows for, and subsequently all its failures too. it is an ideology for a fiercly independent people.
as for what it means to be American you are completely wrong. I will refer you to Dinesh D’Souza’s book “Whats So Great About America.” in it he explains how America is unlike other countries. In India where he is from, you can be third or fourth generation white born in india, and not considered indian by virtue of lineage. on the other hand in America, you can be born in Cuba (like my family) India, Japan or Germany and “become” American. only in America do we understand the concept of “Anti-American” because we understand that America is not just a peice of land with people… but includes certain beliefs. Conversely, a German would look at you oddly for using the word “anti-German”
your use of Ann Coulter’s quote is irresponsible as well. You take her out of context. She was trying to be incindiary. But even so, everyone knows shes incindiary. She is the Howard Stern of the conservative world. Do not use her quote and act as if she is the mother hen of conservative ideals. Regardless of how incindiary she is, its interesting to note that she is also the keynote speaker for HomoCon a convention held by GOProud, a Gay/Lesbian Conservative PAC.
and it was also a slap in the face to see the republican logo used in the confederate flag. Lincoln was a Republican, dumbass.
Your’s Truly
Frank
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Eve Moran
Aug. 16th, 2010 at 6:26 pm
“In India where he is from, you can be third or fourth generation white born in india, and not considered indian by virtue of lineage. on the other hand in America, you can be born in Cuba (like my family) India, Japan or Germany and “become” American. ”
then can you explain the antipathy toward the 14th amendment? we’re also one of the rare nations that allows birthright citizenship… obviously as you’ve explained it, india does not. why should a child be punished for what his parents did or were? to me, this is one of the greatest things about america: the notion that you are an individual with rights that do not hinge on your parentage or property.
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Hrafnkell Haraldsson
Aug. 16th, 2010 at 1:37 pm
You sir are an idiot.
<– ad hominem attack. I could respond in kind but that would hardly serve to further the cause of discourse. I will respond to your other points one by one:
You dont understand the ideals of conservatism at all. to say republicans dont believe you can be gay an american is like saying liberals just want to turn our kids gay with their sex ed programs. You’re not adding to the conversation you’re screaming fire in a crowded theatre. Here’s true conservatism.
<– I can only go by Republican rhetoric, which you apparently do not agree with. You will have to provide examples of conservative discourse that support your position if you wish to further your argument.
Conservatism believes that everyone is equal. There are no people with rights to privilage, but all should have equal opportunities to acheive all the greatness their potential allows for, and subsequently all its failures too. it is an ideology for a fiercly independent people.
<— I would like to see some evidence of this. Conservatism is about the status quo. The status quo has nothing to do with equality or egalitarianism. You sound like you're a liberal and don't know it.
as for what it means to be American you are completely wrong. I will refer you to Dinesh D’Souza’s book “Whats So Great About America.” in it he explains how America is unlike other countries.
<— every country says this about their country
In India where he is from, you can be third or fourth generation white born in india, and not considered indian by virtue of lineage. on the other hand in America, you can be born in Cuba (like my family) India, Japan or Germany and “become” American. <— apparently not, to judge by Republican rhetoric
only in America do we understand the concept of “Anti-American” because we understand that America is not just a peice of land with people… but includes certain beliefs. Conversely, a German would look at you oddly for using the word “anti-German”
<— This if far from true – or even making sense. Every country, every culture, includes certain beliefs. Why would a German look at me oddly for saying anti-German? I've known Germans who are perfectly well aware of the expression and know what it means.
your use of Ann Coulter’s quote is irresponsible as well. You take her out of context. She was trying to be incindiary. But even so, everyone knows shes incindiary. She is the Howard Stern of the conservative world. Do not use her quote and act as if she is the mother hen of conservative ideals.
<— she is an example of a widespread set of beliefs that have come to represent conservatism in this country and she is far from alone. To say she is being incendiary does not excuse her or render her words irrelevant . Hitler was an incendiary too.
Regardless of how incindiary she is, its interesting to note that she is also the keynote speaker for HomoCon a convention held by GOProud, a Gay/Lesbian Conservative PAC.
<— Yes, and several prominent social conservatives have bailed on CPAC because GoProud is being included, and the AFA is up in arms, which only further advertises anti-LGBT feeling on the right. Ann Coulter speaking at a gathering of gay conservatives hardly makes her human rights-friendly. Balance this against everything else she has said. Even Hitler gave little girls candy.
and it was also a slap in the face to see the republican logo used in the confederate flag. Lincoln was a Republican, d*****s.
<— No, it's quite appropriate. What's a slap in the face is to see Republicans claim to be patriots while waving Confederate flags and talking about secession.
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Mark D.
Aug. 16th, 2010 at 5:25 pm
What makes this country exceptional that you can be nobody and become somebody? You can land in this country with $20 in your pocket and if you work hard you can build decent life for yourself and you’re family. And more importantly your kids can have a better life then you did.
This country is exceptional because if you play by rules and you select to integrate you can become American and no one will question your right to be here or make fun of you for doing so.
How do I know this? I know because, I am a son of eastern European immigrants that was born and grow up in the Western Europe. I grow up not being accepted in the country of my birth because my parents where legal immigrants and in the land of my parents I was not accepted because I was born elsewhere. The country of my birth did not care enough about me and my siblings to give us opportunity to select it as the motherland. Even if it did, my life prior to communing to America would have been bit better then what it was, but I would still be limited to the condition I was born into.
This country is exceptional because millions of “nobodies” like me can grow out of boundaries they are born into and archive way more than they ever could in the countries of their origins.
This country is exceptional because no one cares (especially not the state) if you are Baptist, Catholic, Jew or Muslim or whatever you want to , you can be whatever you want to be as long as you are not hurting others. Do ask your theist European friends if the states over there collect taxes on the behave of the church one belongs too.
And by the way, liberalism does not work because most of people are imperfect and selfish and while equality and social justice (what ever that means) sound good on the paper they are not achievable in our current condition. I know because I lived under socialism that broke down on the back of my generation. Liberalism does not changes human conditions, it only changes haves and have not’s and ultimately locks in people into the conditions they were born into.
This country is exceptional because even someone whose English sux as mine does was able to make a living in this great nation.
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Jules
Aug. 16th, 2010 at 5:31 pm
Excellent points – very well said.
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Eve Moran
Aug. 16th, 2010 at 6:28 pm
“This country is exceptional because no one cares (especially not the state) if you are Baptist, Catholic, Jew or Muslim or whatever you want to , you can be whatever you want to be as long as you are not hurting others. ”
unless you’re a group of law abiding muslims who want to build something two blocks away from ground zero. then it’s suddenly everyone’s business.
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Sarah Jones
Aug. 16th, 2010 at 7:45 pm
Liberalism in this country hardly translates to liberalism in European countries. Our liberal is center or right in Europe. Our right is crazy. There is no socialist party here.
It is inaccurate by a very long shot to equate American liberals with socialists or European socialism or liberals.
Remember, in America, a liberal is someone who believes in science.
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Jules
Aug. 16th, 2010 at 5:30 pm
It seems there are very few comments to counter your opinions, and let’s be honest, that’s what they are, opinions (not facts as they are represented) in this article. I have a few things for you to think about. We are not going to agree on this.
If you don’t mind, I am going to use quotes from above and address them individually.
“American Exceptionalists on the other hand like to erect statues to a Jewish peasant who was executed on charges of sedition more than 2,000 years ago and in another country entirely. It is towards a mythology built up around that man that Republican patriotism increasingly revolves.”
Minimizing Jesus is disrespectful to people who are Christians, yet it is commonly done as it is here. You are correct in citing that many Republican ideals are based on Christian values – this is true. But what exactly is wrong with that? Jesus mission here on earth (regardless of whether or not you believe him to be the Son of God) was to teach us how to love. There is no better example of love, compassion, generosity, and tolerance that I have ever seen. I would think you would love this guy, who in my opinion, had way more in common with those who want to redistribute wealth than any Republican Christian will ever admit in a public forum.
Besides, it makes me crazy when not Christians try to teach or tell me what I as a Christian believe. If you want to make a case for your own beliefs and try to win people over – fine. But this type of argument dilutes your credibility.
“According to the Republican worldview, of course, the true Enlightenment was the Christian Middle Ages and the Enlightenment the rest of us recognize inaugurated the Age of Satan. In this topsy-turvy world, foreigners are only the tip of the iceberg of who cannot be Americans. ”
Is it not possible to be a Republican and an intellectual? When did those things become mutually exclusive, and who proclaimed you judge? I disagree with your assertion in this statement, especially the last sentence. America is a nation of foreigners….unless of course you are an American Indian, in which case you have somehow become a 2nd class citizen.
“Not so fast, say conservatives, who argue that the Free Exercise clause does not apply to Muslims, and that only Christians are fit to hold public office and that atheists aren’t really citizens at all.”
Let me say that I don’t agree with everything the Republicans stand for – I’m fiscally conservative and socially liberal, if that makes sense. But I am a Christian and that is the main reason I’m taking the time to respond here. It’s not that Muslims are not fit to hold public office (including the Presidency), they are. I think the challenge most people have is they simply cannot believe that the American public elected a Muslim president this soon after 911, and considering how the majority of the Muslim world feels about the good old USA. I am not arguing their right to feel how they do (referring to Muslims), I’m just giving you my perspective. And, why is it that Obama claims to be a Christian when he so obviously is not? Man up dude, be what you are. Then again, I don’t really know what’s in his heart. However, if it walks like a duck, and it quacks like a duck……..well, you know.
“Sarah Palin argues that our inalienable rights come from God, but in the Ten Commandments God does not bestow rights. He bestows restrictions. There are no rights in the Old Testament. Put them side by side and you will see the Decalogue and the Constitution have nothing in common.
Never mind the contradictions. We are assured by them that America was founded by Christians and for Christians.
No one else need apply.
This is how it works: only Christians (and the presumption is that these Christians are white) can be citizens – and patriotic. Everyone else is lumped together under the heading “other” – a group that is considered anti-American, terrorists, or terrorist-friendly, and is presumed to have as a goal the destruction of America.”
First of all, it is the Declaration of Independence that states “We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.” Not the Constitution. People seem to get that confused. So it was in fact the Founding Fathers, and not just Sarah Palin who held this belief.
With regards to God and the 10 Commandments, think about it like this. If there is a God, and He is real, and he actually did create all things for His use and pleasure, why should he grant us any rights at all? If you were God would you grant your creations rights they could use against you? That doesn’t really make sense. What you might do, as did the God I believe in, was lay down some rules for living. The Bible is full of two things: promises and curses. In other words, the way I look at it is this. In my opinion, God is. He will do what He says He will do, and He will not do what He says He will not do. He gives us rules to live by, and if you choose to have faith and believe you will do your best to live by these rules……….which, quite frankly, are pretty reasonable for the most part. So I guess we agree here?
“This is how it works: only Christians (and the presumption is that these Christians are white) can be citizens – and patriotic. Everyone else is lumped together under the heading “other” – a group that is considered anti-American, terrorists, or terrorist-friendly, and is presumed to have as a goal the destruction of America.”
This paragraph is simply ridiculous. Who believes this? Where did you come up with the presumption that Christians are white? Am I white? Pardon my french, but this is just garbage and seems to be intended to pick a fight. So for the record, this is NOT how it works. You are smarter than that dude.
“The problem is that none of this is true; none of the Republican mythology has any basis in fact. And the comparison is impossible to ignore: the little Nazi bund gathering in their beer halls plotting to take back “their” country, a Germany which had no similarity to any previous Germany, one that existed only in their minds, just as our Republicans want to take back a country that has no similarity to any previous America.”
I’m sure you think Glenn Beck is an idiot. And I will admit he can be really, really annoying. But what Beck seems to be to me is a History teacher – and while his show is opinion based, he does a pretty good job of citing historical works that you could go read for yourself. However, you and I both know average America is not about to take the time to go read for themselves. So there is Beck and you who both take the extreme and try to make it seem like the common belief.
I think people want to “take back America” to a time that existed, just not to the degree they romanticize it. This to me brings bringing us back to a time when honor and decency meant something. A time when corruption and greed (while it most certainly did exist in large measure) was not nearly so accepted as “just the way it is”. A little “Leave it to Beaver” would make a lot of really conservative Americans very happy. They think. I don’t think you and I are that far off here, we just have a very different way of expressing this.
I do think that comparing those who want to restore honest and decent values to our societal institutions to the people who formed the 3rd Reich is out of line. Really? Nazi’s? I think that is a stretch and I find it a bit offensive.
“Can patriotism be directed against the Constitution by denying people free expression and equal rights? Can patriotism be for secession from the Union? Can patriotism be for ignoring federal laws and regulations whenever you like? Do patriots fly Confederate flags instead of American flags?
The answer is no. We have another word for that: treason.”
Personally I kind of like your confederate flag with the republican symbols in it – very creative I thought. I personally have a problem with the demonization of the Rebel Flag. In the South, we call it heritage and not hate. It’s a symbol of the war of Northern aggression. Which, in my opinion was less about slavery than it was about economics and an agrarian south telling an industrial north to go pound sand.
But the fact is I would never fly a rebel flag at my house because it has become something that is offensive to many people. I am not some stupid redneck, nor do I hate people just because they are different from me. I don’t want to debate the wisdom of flying a rebel flag, I merely meant to say I like yours.
It is possible to have rational discussion on the things covered in your article, but my personal bottom line is this. I cannot stand being lectured on Christian values by someone who is not a Christian. Nothing worse than being told what you believe by someone who does not hold the same belief structure, nor do you live in my head.
My suggestion is spend more time promoting your beliefs and point of view, and less time telling me what I believe and you will attract many more readers to your blog. The only reason I saw this in the first place was because and atheist friend of mine re posted it on Facebook.
Peace.
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Eve Moran
Aug. 16th, 2010 at 6:47 pm
“And, why is it that Obama claims to be a Christian when he so obviously is not? Man up dude, be what you are. Then again, I don’t really know what’s in his heart. However, if it walks like a duck, and it quacks like a duck……..well, you know.”
look, you just did exactly what you derided hrafnkell for. you don’t know what is really in obama’s heart any more than i can know who really follows christ.
how is obama obviously not a christian? he attended church for years and years. he claims to be a christian. is that not the way most of you identify yourselves? is there a secret handshake or password?
i’d also like to note that you correctly cite the creator phrase in the declaration of independence, yet you immediately go on to talk about “God.” and not just any god, but the 10 commandments one. if that’s what the founders meant, why did they write “creator” rather than “God?” if you look at the religions of the founders, it suddenly makes sense: they don’t share a common faith. sure, many of them are christians, but that includes catholics, protestants, episcopalians, quakers… and this is why they were careful with the terminology. they couldn’t agree on any dogma that would suit everybody. and this is why it’s so creepy to see the 10 commandments flirting with the law as though that’s what the founders wanted. when the constitutional congress was deliberating these documents, franklin floated the idea that they should have someone to lead them in prayer. not only was this several weeks into the project, it was also voted on and rejected.
http://www.adherents.com/people/pf/Benjamin_Franklin.html
honestly, there is nothing wrong with being christian or devout, but it would be nice to see some recognition that historically, the founding fathers were trying to knit together what was at the time a very diverse group. to try to paint this country as a “christian nation” flies in the face of the carefully crafted documents they left us.
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Jules
Aug. 16th, 2010 at 7:51 pm
Very true point about the founders being from various different groups of believers. Would it be better then to say we were founded as a “Godly Nation”?
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Eve Moran
Aug. 16th, 2010 at 11:47 pm
i don’t think so. the definition of godly is:
1. Having great reverence for God; pious.
2. Divine.
our founding documents contain just that one reference to a creator, right? the constitution is dated “in the year of our lord,” but that’s just another way of saying “anno domini.” and everything that says “x year A.D.” is not godly, is it? and personally, i believe the reason they do that is just as a poetic way to say that all men have rights, regardless of creed or lineage (though obviously not race or sex in those days). the reason i say this is because there is nothing about god or jesus or any other deity in the rest of the constitution or the declaration of independence. in fact, the constitution specifically bars religious tests for office.
so i have to ask, what would imply that we were founded as a godly nation? and why must we be? why isn’t it enough to be a just nation or a good nation?
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Jules
Aug. 17th, 2010 at 1:36 am
Do you believe in God? We do seem to trust Him, at least that’s what the money says.
Nobody can really know what these guys actually thought, they have been dead a long time. All we can do is try to infer from their writings and their lives what they must have believed. I am amazed by the incredibly diverse opinions on this subject…but such is life.
The great thing about America is that you are free to believe what you want to believe, and while there are things others do that are in direct opposition to my own personal beliefs, as an American I have to be willing to let them have thier space, just as they allow me.
What I do wish more people would be aware of is that our rights and freedoms end where other’s rights and freedoms begin. In other words, I have the right to free speech, but that doesn’t give me the right to be offensive and derogatory to others. I could do that, but I shouldn’t. Make sense?
Here is a question (slightly un-related, but not really): If there is no God, or let’s just say we are not a Godly nation, where does our moral imperative come from? The need for order in society? How is it that we intrinsically know right from wrong? Where does that come from?
And, how do you explain the incredible wealth and abundance of the United States? I agree with Hrafnkell (and by the way, how do you pronounce that?) that we should not try to impose our religious beliefs on others….they are free to believe what they will. But I do think that at the end of the day there have to be some absolute truths in the world, and there surely must be a source.
You are never really going to know for certain until the day of your death. I’m glad we live in country where we can have this debate without fear of reprisal or punishment. For that we should all be grateful, and that is something we should all be willing to defend.
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Jules
Aug. 17th, 2010 at 1:42 am
Oh, and also, I very much appreciate the tone of your reply. We may not agree, but you show respect for others and that is something we don’t often see in these types of forums.
It’s refreshing. Thank you.
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Eve Moran
Aug. 17th, 2010 at 3:38 am
thank you! i have spent a lot of time discussing politics online and i’ve tried to cultivate an attitude that enables conversation instead of just argument. it seems like such a waste to just yell at each other in these spaces.
to address your first comment, i’m an agnostic. i can’t really decide if i believe or not. i don’t seem to have much capacity for faith in my personality. i think that’s why i read so much: i like to know where things come from and i like to check my own perceptions. you mention that our money says “in god we trust,” and it fascinates me that that motto was adopted only recently. it appeared on a few coins in the 1800s, but it wasn’t until 1956 that congress adopted it as our national motto and added it to all our money. the founding fathers had all been using “e pluribus unum” as a motto. but really, isn’t it kind of weird to have references to god on our money? jesus chased the moneychangers out of the temple. money is about the most earthly, least divine thing there is.
“In other words, I have the right to free speech, but that doesn’t give me the right to be offensive and derogatory to others. ”
but what is offensive and derogatory? i am somewhat offended by the injection of religion into our history, yet i’d rather discuss it and try to understand it than not see the conversation take place.
“Here is a question (slightly un-related, but not really): If there is no God, or let’s just say we are not a Godly nation, where does our moral imperative come from? The need for order in society? How is it that we intrinsically know right from wrong? Where does that come from?”
even before the laws in the bible, there were nations with laws. and they had other gods. were they mistaken? are there other gods?
as to where our moral imperative comes from… was it moral to attack iraq after 9-11? i would say that it was not, because it has resulted in so much death and destruction. we were not attacked by iraq and we know now that they had no wmds as we were led to believe.
so what is godly about that? do godly nations make mistakes? i believe that as a democracy, our moral imperative must come from the people, and that we must be educated and engaged. when we make mistakes, i think it demonstrates that we’re on our own, doing the best we can. it is up to us to correct our course when we’re wrong.
as for intrinsically knowing right from wrong, i have to disagree completely. it has been a struggle throughout history to determine right from wrong. let’s look at slavery, for example. the bible doesn’t bar slavery. human beings have owned slaves for nearly all of recorded history. it was only recently that we started to question the morality of owning other human beings. and that didn’t come from god. there were abolitionist churches and slave owning churches. both could find scripture to back up their claims.
“And, how do you explain the incredible wealth and abundance of the United States?”
in part, i can explain it by pointing out that we have secured a very fortunate place in the world. but the world is not a vacuum, and in a lot of ways, our wealth and abundance cost other nations greatly.
http://www.margueritelaurent.com/pressclips/foodcrisis.html#rice
http://articles.sfgate.com/2006-07-31/news/17305067_1_corn-farmers-american-corn-corn-prices
i’m also grateful that we can have these kinds of discussions. we are a very fortunate few in all of human history. as much as i’d like to attribute this to god, i cannot help but wonder why he let my ancestors and yours struggle so much and so painfully. and this process of evolution has been painful and bloody. that to me, is very human, and not divine. perhaps that is the way it had to be, but i think we owe it to ourselves to notice the struggle, and the many human beings involved in it.
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C.L.
Aug. 17th, 2010 at 3:24 am
Jules: “Besides, it makes me crazy when not Christians try to teach or tell me what I as a Christian believe.”
Jules: “Nothing worse than being told what you believe by someone who does not hold the same belief structure….”
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Jules, your above comments are rich. Really rich — as in ironically, historically, self-righteously rich.
One of Christianity’s most important dictates is evangelizing the “non-believers” of the whole world — Yep. In language you can appreciate, that means “teaching and telling” all those lost sinners with different belief structures how they should really believe.
Christian missionaries have aggressively and self-righteously marched out through the centuries to the farthest corners of the globe to push their Christian beliefs, sometimes at the point of a sword or at the burning stake, on other cultures. In our own country, Native American children were taken away from their parents and placed in boarding schools by Christian missionaries for evangelical indoctrination.
So — it makes you crazy when other people try to tell you what to believe? Snort. If you’re feeling crazy, it’s because not everyone believes the same way as you do — a very threatening concept for religious folks who think their way is the “one and only true way.”
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Jules
Aug. 17th, 2010 at 11:44 am
Jesus said to tell them, not try to convince them. If they want to hear it they will hear it, if they don’t, shake the dust off your sandals and move on to someone else.
Unfortunately people get pretty zealous when they become believers and tend to turn more people off than not. I get it. It’s language I can understand.
It’s not my job to convince people to believe one way or another, it is my responsibility to share what I believe to the truth. If I truly believe that Jesus is the way, the truth, and the light and I didn’t tell you about it that would make me kind of a dick. I’m just trying to help you out….but like I said, I could be wrong.
I know one thing: If you don’t believe in God you better be right.
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C.L.
Aug. 17th, 2010 at 6:39 pm
Typical religious “scorpion” argument: smooth progression across the floor — with a stinger at the end.
Spiritually speaking —- fear-based conversions are weak tea, and don’t reflect well on any faith.
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Jules
Aug. 18th, 2010 at 10:39 pm
Whatever dude….whatever. You are so enlightened and smart. Maybe you should share your life wisdom with the world. I’m sure we could all use it.
If only we all had it all together like you do. What a wonderful world this would be. Now go home and hang out with your cats you sad little man.
I will not be reading this again. So don’t bother to answer.
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Hrafnkell Haraldsson
Aug. 16th, 2010 at 7:32 pm
Jules,
Thank you for your in depth response. I don’t have time to respond to each and every point you made but I will tackle a few of them here.
“Minimizing Jesus is disrespectful to people who are Christians, yet it is commonly done as it is here. ”
I did not show disrespect for Jesus. I did, however, show respect for history. You an believe what you wish of Jesus, a Nicene Jesus or a Gnostic Jesus or whatever Jesus you want, but history can only show that if he lived at all, he was an illiterate Galilean peasant who was executed for sedition in the first century C.E. It is not possible for a historian to posit divine status to Jesus any more than to Apollonius of Tyana.
“You are correct in citing that many Republican ideals are based on Christian values – this is true. But what exactly is wrong with that?”
There is nothing wrong with Republicans having the values they wish. They do not, however, possess the right to impose these values on everyone else.
“Jesus mission here on earth (regardless of whether or not you believe him to be the Son of God) was to teach us how to love.”
This, Jules, is debatable. There is a great deal of intolerance in the New Testament. The entire message is intolerant, in fact. The end-time scenario calls for everyone who doesn’t believe Jesus is God to get wiped out and Christians will inherit the earth. That’s a whole lotta intolerance, Jules. That isn’t love. I strongly suggest you read Gerd Lüdemann, “Intolerance and the Gospel” (2007) for some eye openers.
“There is no better example of love, compassion, generosity, and tolerance that I have ever seen. I would think you would love this guy, who in my opinion, had way more in common with those who want to redistribute wealth than any Republican Christian will ever admit in a public forum. ”
Yes, there is some love, compassion and generosity in the gospels but there is no tolerance. Gentiles are swine and dogs. Christians will inherit the earth and everybody else has to die. I agree that Jesus, being one of the downtrodden, preached a different gospel than most Republicans care to admit. After all, he had little to say about the rich – and very little reason to do so given the economic situation of Galilee in the first century.
“I’m sure you think Glenn Beck is an idiot. And I will admit he can be really, really annoying.”
You are right.
“But what Beck seems to be to me is a History teacher – and while his show is opinion based, he does a pretty good job of citing historical works that you could go read for yourself.”
If Beck knows any history at all, Jules, he is not letting on. I have degrees in history and philosophy. I know when Beck is full of it, and that is most of the time.
“It is possible to have rational discussion on the things covered in your article, but my personal bottom line is this. I cannot stand being lectured on Christian values by someone who is not a Christian.”
See answer below.
“Nothing worse than being told what you believe by someone who does not hold the same belief structure, nor do you live in my head.”
For your information, Jules, I was brought up Lutheran (ELCA) and spent the first 20 years of my life in that religion. I went through the whole rigmarole including confirmation classes. It is not as if I am not informed about Christianity. I possess more books in my library about Christianity than I do about Paganism or any other subject.
Secondly, I did not tell you what you personally believe. Nobody can speak for every member of a religion. That should be obvious. I can’t speak for every Pagan, or every Heathen, let alone every Christian. I can respond, however, to what they say, to the examples of their belief in their words. And I do.
That aside, lack of knowledge of or participation in Pagan religions has never stopped an apologist or right-wing pundit or pastor from lecturing about Paganism. And most of them have no knowledge at all about the subject.
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Jules
Aug. 16th, 2010 at 7:47 pm
Fair enough……thanks for responding. Where do you post more of your stuff? I would be interested to see what else you have to say on other topics.
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Hrafnkell Haraldsson
Aug. 17th, 2010 at 3:58 pm
Jules, sorry I didn’t have time for a longer answer. I appreciated that you took the time to spell out your objections. It’s refreshing to not be told I’m stupid and leave it at that – the usual response on Digg.
You can find my stuff on Paganism at www.aheathensday.com. I also publish on godsownparty.com/blog and Pagan+Politics (http://politics.pagannewswirecollective.com/).
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Jules
Aug. 18th, 2010 at 11:29 pm
We obviously don’t agree……..but that doesn’t make either one of us stupid. Different view points are what make the world go round, and I like to hear views different from my own.
I already know what I know.
Peace.
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Geoff
Aug. 17th, 2010 at 12:37 am
“According to the Republican worldview, of course, the true Enlightenment was the Christian Middle Ages and the Enlightenment the rest of us recognize inaugurated the Age of Satan. In this topsy-turvy world, foreigners are only the tip of the iceberg of who cannot be Americans.”
Such b.s., I had to stop reading.
I know of no conservative, let alone conservative leader, who is against immigration. I know of plenty against illegal immigration.
And I know of no Republican who would highlight the Christian Middle Ages. Could we at least try for the Reformation?
I guess it is pretty easy to write an article like this when you can write against liberal straw men of how you think conservatives think. You know, without actually representing their real views and devoid of all nuance.
Yes nuance. That’s that thing liberals accused W. of not being able to appreciate.
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Hrafnkell Haraldsson
Aug. 17th, 2010 at 3:55 pm
Geoff, try reading the Politically Incorrect Guide to…series of books. The Politically Incorrect Guide to Western Civilization claims that “The Middle Ages were the real Age of Reason” and that the enlightenment “yielded tyranny and war.” You can tell Beck has read this trash. Visit Conservapedia sometime. Same sort of thing is to be found there.
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Geoff
Aug. 17th, 2010 at 4:57 pm
Ok, I just looked up “middle ages” in Conservapedia. Seemed well-balanced and mentioned good and bad things about the era (they separated it into two sections besides the Renaissance).
Again, not just this example. You seem to tilt at windmills and engage in hyperbole. Not impressive.
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WilsonwasHott
Aug. 18th, 2010 at 10:54 pm
Wow I learned something amazing from reading this. Sarah Palin is actually supporting our founding fathers. It was the founders that wrote that silly little thing called the Declaration of Independence, right? That is of course if “their Creator” is God.
“We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights”
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georgia
Aug. 18th, 2010 at 11:04 pm
Hrafnkell Haraldsson you said that it was disturbing to you that someone would say a pledge to a Christian flag or to the Bible. Ok. Would it disturb you for a group of people to say a pledge to a Muslim flag? Or if they Muslim religion was taught in the schools?
Are you denying the republicans or anyone else’s right to free speech? Can anyone speak out against what they think is wrong or is it just the democrats who can do that?
There are two sides to every coin. If you can do it (turn the coin over) and the other side can do it, also.
You also seem pretty good at mind reading. You can tell what someone is thinking or why they did something without even talking to them. Thats a Wonderful Talent to have.
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Georgia
Aug. 18th, 2010 at 11:18 pm
Hrafnkell you told Jules “There is nothing wrong with Republicans having the values they wish. They do not, however, possess the right to impose these values on everyone else.” Seems to me that you want to impose your values on everyone. Telling everyone that they should not like these Christian values but instead to think like you do.
The Christians tolerate a lot of things especially other religions. (Tell me what other religion tolerates other religions in their country) But it seems that the very religions that we as Christians tolerate turn around on us and do not want to tolerate our Christian beliefs. They want us to shut up and go away while they are out there trying to get converts to their side. That does not seem like a very nice thing does it?
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Georgia
Aug. 18th, 2010 at 11:21 pm
Hrafnkell you also told Jules “Nothing worse than being told what you believe by someone who does not hold the same belief structure, nor do you live in my head.”
but you are telling people what to believe or what not to believe. Don’t you think that you should stop doing what you are telling others not to do?
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Jorklaas
Aug. 19th, 2010 at 12:03 am
“His interests include, besides history and philosophy, human rights issues, freedom of choice, religion, and the precarious dichotomy of freedom of speech and intolerance. He brings a slightly different perspective to his writing, being that he is neither a follower of an Abrahamic faith nor an atheist but a polytheist, a modern-day Heathen who follows the customs and traditions of his Norse ancestors.”
Taken from the “about” section of the author.
The Nordic tribes of Scandinavia centered their lives around race-preservation/purification. The Norse were Aryan tribes. If you lived during the 9 and 10 century you would still be persecuted for your beliefs, as they differ from the true Norse principle. You are trying to be something you are not.
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C.L.
Aug. 19th, 2010 at 3:54 am
@ Jules August 18 at 10:39 PM
The sound of laughter is echoing around my house.
Here’s the truth, Jules. I don’t have all the answers. In fact, the older I get, the more I realize I don’t know. That’s why it’s so irresistible to pass that humility along where it’s warranted.
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Keith Wright
Aug. 30th, 2010 at 8:13 am
I began to read the article and was surprised to have this “salvation button” staring me in the face. Electronic salvation? Pray the prayer? Yes or No? WTF? What is this all about? Isn’t this something the Founders said should be between man and God? Did you put this up in jest? I’d like to hear from you.
Rev Keith Wright (Deist)
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misanthropope
Sep. 16th, 2010 at 5:06 am
patriotism was invented as a way to get your wars fought, without doling out the spoils.
it’s marketed as a way to feel good about your bigotry. and it sells WELL.
that’s it, that’s all.
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anti_supernaturalist
Sep. 19th, 2010 at 1:21 pm
**on the road to theocracy**
Search for one ideology – the xian political ideology, Dominionism. A view that “god” ought to “rule” over the state. Of course, such nonsense amounts to puritanical, hate-based, intolerant, totalitarian rule by self-anointed god-proxies.
The irrational world of xian taliban fundamentalists (fundies) centers on one goal: overthrowing the US Constitution and replacing our open society with a xian theocracy. Palin and Beck are dominionists, as is the “C” Street Family, and high ranking officers in the military.
Iran is paradoxically the fundies shining model – only the religious institutions differ. The means — fear, hatred, displays of weapons, threats of violence, misogyny, killings — are the same. The goal of putting “god’s” proxies in charge remains the same.
Read Canada’s dystopian novelist – Margaret Atwood. One work, The Handmaid’s Tale, tells of an America taken over by fundies…it is coming true all around us.
the anti_supernaturalist
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Daedalus
Oct. 4th, 2010 at 4:36 am
perhaps “conservatism” in its present incarnation doesn’t really “conserve” anything at all, except a distorted perception of the past and the “Good Old Days”. Senator McCarthy could be the model for the current version of conservatism; unwilling to approach any kind of change with anything but virulent animosity and a powerful will to undermine and destroy any common purpose for dealing with contemporary realities. I think it is a national chauvinism for the myths and illusions of our collective past that continues to stymie appropriate change and confound even the most superficial attempts to understand our times.
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Theocoles
Oct. 23rd, 2010 at 11:47 am
This is rather off topic, but I feel moved to post anyways.
I am an avid Stumbler, and have come across hundreds, perhaps thousands of blogs related to politics. Some I agree with and some I don’t, but the one similarity I find on every page is a huge string of comments attached to the bottom which is filled with hate. Self proclaimed Democrats are there bashing “ignorant conservative rednecks”, while self proclaimed Republicans are seen responding in kind to the “elitist brainwashed Obama lovers”. Every time I read them (which I know I really shouldn’t but do anyways) I die a little inside, and lose a little more faith in this great nation. As a nation is only the sum of its parts, seeing various “parts” acting so disrespectfully and downright inhumane towards one another makes one lose hope.
This comment list, however, is different. Intelligent discourse in a polite, respectful manner… I had to rub my eyes and refresh the page, sure something was wrong. Where were all of the “obama is a muslim faggot” and “all christians are in-bred retards” posts? Could it be possible that, even in a completely anonymous, online forum, fellow citizens (and perhaps individuals of other nationalities, there’s no way to tell) were in fact making some sort of progress towards resolving a political debate? Some were even acknowledging that they AGREED with one another!
I almost cried.
My faith in this great nation has been restored.
Thank you all for being fine examples of United States Citizens, and of human beings.
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stephen jackson
Nov. 23rd, 2010 at 11:09 am
allow me to preface by saying you sir, (Frank) need to learn how to spell, most thinking people that read something that is supposed to sway them to your side of the fence just pass you off as another tea party moron, who doesnt care enough to use his spell check.
To the blood and guts of this issue; let’s not lose sight of the fact that muslims and jews believe in the same god christians do, and as they all deserve equal protection to practice their respective religions, conservative muslims would like throwing gays, lesbians, pagans, feminists, et al; under the bus as much as the conservative christians would. Having been down the road of conservative republican, born again christian, I fell for the rhetoric, and was part of the problem for years. The neo-cons will blow smoke up your hindquarters to try and throw people off of their real agenda, not unlike the nazi’s. Which is why I made the choice to jump ship, as a thinking person, I started to think this movement sounded too much like national socialism, and wanted no part of it. So, all of you “patriots” out there should take some time to study how Hitler came to power, and you may discover your ideaology is frighteningly similar to his.
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