This would be better translated as, “If you don’t support our fantasy that America is a Christian Nation, you should get out.”
Because America is not a Christian nation. It has never been.
I’m sure we’d know: the Constitution would say so.
But it doesn’t.
Yet this is the position we hear often from the minority block of Evangelical voters, who comprise just 24 percent of the electorate (of whom, one-quarter are not extreme enough to want to ban abortion in every instance).
There is more than a little hubris in a member of an extremist minority claiming ownership of an entire country to the detriment of the other three-quarters of the population. But then the old cry of “America, Love it or Leave it” always had overtones of “America as I imagine it” rather than “America as it is” or “America as it was meant to be.”
Yet that’s just what Christian broadcaster Joni Lamb said to her viewers the other day: “that if you live in America and you understand that we are a Christian society then you can’t be offended by things like that or you shouldn’t live here.”
This all came about because of a Christian prayer at a graduation ceremony. We all know that fundamentalist Christians love to use graduation ceremonies as a proselytizing opportunity, a chance to cement the supposed bond between the Church and young people as they enter adult life – a sort of coming of age thing.
Graduations are often held in churches or imbued with religious overtones, much to the discomfort of the non-Christians who make up a growing segment of the population.
Fundamentalist Christians see nothing wrong with this. To their mind, it is not the non-Christians who are the victims, but the Christians who are being told they cannot force their religion on the other students.
To their mind, anything which impinges on the special rights of Christians is a form of persecution.
Like doubting the “eye witness” account in the Bible of the earth’s creation, which. asserts Bryan Fischer, proves the job was done in seven days (and in the process, refuting the Big Bang and evolution): “So, the only eyewitness account we could possibly have would have to come from the creator himself, and fortunately he left us an eyewitness account.”
The Religious Right has had a very rough time of it since Election Day, showing themselves to be even more intransigent (if possible) than the anti-government Tea Party racists and plutocrats who are the other major components of the Republican Party.
We’ve seen how they prayed for Obama’s defeat; we’ve seen how they’ve dealt with the belief that their god said “no” to their prayers. We’ve seen that their reaction has a lot of “if only…” in it: if only everyone still went to church; if only there weren’t so many icky brown people wanting free things; if only young unmarried women didn’t all want unrestricted access to penises without consequences…if only…
The other part of their reaction revolves around God’s punishment. One of the realizations they took from God’s denial of their prayers was that his judgment is upon us all for electing Obama. I mean, they hate Obama; how could God possibly approve of him?
You get the idea – and this is far from the first time in history this has happened – that God is more of a artificial construct created with the purpose of justifying and legitimizing their bigotries and hatreds. Fundamentalists were not created in God’s image; God was created in their image.
The old expression “as above, so below” has become “as below, so above.” If it is true here, it must be true in heaven. Meaning God is some ugly-ass middle-aged white man with a huge round belly who doesn’t bathe often enough and has a gun-rack in the back window of his pickup right alongside a Confederate flag decal.
So their hatred and bigotry has resulted in the belief that God is mighty angry on behalf of his troubled white children over their bullying by the icky brown people. He hasn’t turned anyone into a pillar of salt yet, but boy, you just wait till your Father gets home…
Franklin Graham says God is so mad he’s going to bestow on us sinful Americans an economic collapse. That’ll teach us! For the audacity of daring to believe we have to fix our economic problems without factoring God into our economic forecasts, Franklin says God will slap the smiles off our faces:
“What has happened is we have allowed ourselves to take God out everything that we do – and I believe that God will judge our nation one day…maybe God will have to bring our nation to our knees – to where that we just have a complete economic collapse. Maybe at that point, people will again call upon the name of almighty God.”
Sweet Jesus! Yeah, I’m sure that will work.
Even more upset than Franklin Graham are the clowns at Liberty Counsel. Reports Right Wing Watch,
It has been two weeks since President Obama was re-elected and Mat Staver and Matt Barber do not seem to have gotten over it yet as they dedicated a recent program to lamenting that America has re-elected the “most liberal, socialist, anti-liberty, anti-Israel, anti-life, anti-marriage, anti-religious values, anti-religious freedom, anti-free enterprise and pro-regulation president in American history” and, in doing so, has brought God’s judgment upon itself by “adopting sin as official public policy.”
I look at that long list of sins and my first thought is, “So apparently the God of Moses hates regulation?”
Well f*ck me sideways! Who knew?
See how much God resembles his worshipers? To the male Jahwists who comprised the top 1 percent of post-exilic Israel’s population, God was a bearded, self-righteous Jewish male who wanted to subordinate women and tell everyone in the kingdom what to believe and how to go about believing it. He was just the God they needed, embodying as he did all their bigotries and prejudices.
To the various authors of the New Testament God was also just who they needed him to be, creating a whole lotta dysfunction and contradiction in the new Gentile covenant with the God of Moses. For a group that stresses an inflexible doctrine over moral relativism, the God of Moses has been a God of a whole lotta various things, depending upon the needs of the moment.
He isn’t a God at all. He is every religious extremist’s bitch. A sock puppet.
And if we don’t like it, we can get out?
Pardon us for saying, “Whoa there, just a minute. Back up and explain yourselves.”
There is something almost charming about listening to the clueless chatter of a defeated minority who thinks they’re a majority, dealing with cognitive dissonance.
I said “almost” charming.
Because laugh at them as we will (and we will), there is real venom in their words and actions. They seriously believe we all ought to get out. They seriously believe we all ought to do as they say, if not as they do. Be warned: In Kentucky, if they can’t make you get out for denying their god, they can sure as shootin’ put you in prison.
Ugliness and hypocrisy abound in Evangelical circles: General David Petraeus and his hypocritical policy of “spiritual fitness” for the soldiers while he was getting it on with his biographer; an attorney for the fundamentalist anti-gay organization, Alliance Defense Fund, which though dedicated to “transforming the legal system and advocating for religious liberty, the sanctity of life, and marriage and family” has attorneys like Lisa Biron working for it. Lisa was arrested. She allegedly loves ecstasy, marijuana and cocaine and forcing young girls into sexual relationships.
Apparently, if we don’t approve of such things – and logically, God must approve – we should get out.
That’s their play.
And God is somehow mad at us liberals. God hates black people. He hates women. He hates Latinos. He hates government.
He LOVES rich people, even though his son who was also himself and some sort of spirit-entity, had not one good thing to say about them.
You would think at the very least Obama’s re-election would cause some head-scratching but they seem more sure than ever of the sanctity of their discredited position.
On some deep level they actually seem to revel in the seeming evidence of their persecution as they continue to drive around in big fancy cars and living the high life while bilking the gullible sheeple of their hard-earned fleece.
So while you’re packing your bags, don’t shed a tear for David Petraeus. He’ll be fine. Fundies love a good redemption story. He’ll find out he hadn’t found God after all but he’ll find God now, good and certain, and be a popular hero again. Lisa Biron will find out she was possessed by a gay demon and submit to gay therapy, to be at last the demented fag-hating heterosexual God always meant her to be.
And America? Once all the icky brown people get out, America will be white and Evangelical, just like the Good Lord intended.





Forrest Franks
Nov. 21st, 2012 at 7:08 pm
If you think this is a Christian nation, you are sadly mistaken. And if you don’t like it maybe you bible thumpers need to GET OUT!
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galactusx
Nov. 21st, 2012 at 8:08 pm
It is garbage like this that has turned my sons off to even the possibility of a God much less Christianity. You idiots are running off people! You don’t speak for God!
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laingirl
Nov. 21st, 2012 at 10:34 pm
You’re correct. There was a study recently that found many of the young people who are not religious stated they were turned off by the evangelicals and fundamentalists. So if they keep up with their talk, they will dwindle away. A Pew study a couple of years ago about religion indicated that the group which knew the most about religion was the atheists.
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A Walkaway
Nov. 22nd, 2012 at 11:12 am
My wife and I have dealt with the fallout from the evangelicals/dominionists at school many times (I’ve posted on another recent thread about the jackleg preachers at our campus, with links to videos – http://www.politicususa.com/gop-churches-prosper-economically.html#comments ). Not only do they turn people off, they also hurt people (if they sense a topic is painful to someone, they’ll emphasize it – they are great at picking up feelings of guilt) and I’ve experienced some extreme anti-religion hostility and had to speak out a few times, directly because of those damned a**holes and their hate.
Like in times past, the few real Christians are forced to suffer because of the “Good Christians” (or Churchians).
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Robert Chapman
Nov. 22nd, 2012 at 11:41 am
It is sad when parents so underestimate their children.
One would hope your sons made their decisions about religion for deeper and more weighty reasons than their response to the shallow ostentatiousness of the spectacles and attitudes Mr. Haralsen described in his article.
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Cthulhu
Nov. 23rd, 2012 at 11:27 am
NOBODY speaks for God, because he’s a myth, same as Zeus, Allah, or Mithra.
All fantasies. The sooner we get rid of them, the better we’ll all be.
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Colleen
Nov. 21st, 2012 at 8:10 pm
Where do you Bible Thumping Evangelicals get your mistaken ideas? This nation was not founded on Christianity. If you don’t like that then YOU can leave.
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Robert Chapman
Nov. 22nd, 2012 at 11:46 am
The Pilgrims founded the Plymouth Colony explicitly as a haven for their religious practices.
Roger Williams founded Rhode Island specifically as a Baptist have from the Puritans.
William Penn founded Pennsylvania as a colony and haven for Quakers.
Lord Baltimore founded Maryland as a have and colony for English adherents of Roman Catholicism.
Charles Wesley the founder of Methodism was an active and ubiguitous preacher in the colonial South and his followers shaped the development of the southern colonies.
One cannot factually state that this was NOT founded as a Christian polity.
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robyn ryan
Nov. 22nd, 2012 at 2:17 pm
‘Religious freedom?’
The first thing they did, after killing Natives, was punish each other for perceived heresy.
And try to earn a profit for their Charter Company masters back in Europe.
Remember that your understanding of America as a ‘Christian Nation’ is a manifestation of a post-WWII Cold War construct that put ‘Under god’ on our money.
The Constitution was constructed to use the State as the wall between religion and the citizen.
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Sandra
Nov. 22nd, 2012 at 7:18 pm
Robert, the names you list in your post tells me that these men were finding havens for their specific religious beliefs ie freedom and liberty to worship as they choose rather than be dictated to by others. That though does not mean the nation was founded on Christanity as per the Constitution and the Federalist Papers? Separation of Church and State is the law of the land and freedom to worship as one pleases.
One can’t claim a chrisitan nation considering the history of how said nation was founded, ie massacering and annihilation of the original inhabitants and stealing what did not belong to your ethnic group, which is gainst God’s word. So lets drop the notion than the US and Canada too are Christian Nations, we’re not.
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Baldand58
Nov. 23rd, 2012 at 8:50 am
Sandra,
I agree with your thesis that the genocide of the native inhabitants is not Xtian, but it certainly is biblical…as in old testament biblical. The big bearded guy told whichever leader was in charge of the israelites to go into many places and kill every human there…man, woman, and child. They weren’t even allowed to keep them as post-war slaves. The livestock had value, so they kept them.
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Zach
Nov. 23rd, 2012 at 11:00 am
You listed a bunch of COLONIES. The discussion is not about religious associations of COLONIES. It is about how our NATION was specifically and deliberately created with a non-religious government.
Please pay closer attention to the discussion.
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Cthulhu
Nov. 23rd, 2012 at 11:30 am
Those were colonies, NOT part of the nation. They didn’t exist in those identities when the Declaration was penned.
Sorry, this nation was in no way created as a Christian haven. It would have been mentioned quite prominently in the Constitution if it were.
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omomma
Nov. 25th, 2012 at 11:38 am
Catholics were “given” Maryland in the hopes that they would clear out, en masse, from England. Practice of their religion was forbidden in England; the “new world” was thought to be the perfect place for them, among the “savages” with whom they belonged.
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Scott Yoshonis
Nov. 26th, 2012 at 6:07 pm
If this nation really were founded as a Christian nation, one would think that there would be one mention of Christ or any exclusively Christian tenet or belief in one of the founding documents.
But there isn’t. Not one. And there is a reason for that.
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Estproph
Nov. 27th, 2012 at 12:14 pm
Yes you can factually state that the country was not founded as a Christian nation. Some colonies may have been founded as Christian colonies, but in case you aren’t aware of it, THIS COUNTRY was founded on the Constitution of the United States of America, which was the second attempt at making a nation out of the colonies. THIS COUNTRY is not a Christian nation, and it is a lie to claim that it is.
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Sugapea
Nov. 23rd, 2012 at 2:48 pm
Just look at what ‘Religion’ can do.
“The Land Is Mine” http://vimeo.com/50531435
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gsb
Nov. 27th, 2012 at 3:20 pm
Colleen, they get their information from their home schooled teachers.Parents,anyone that will teach what they want.the earth is just 6000 yrs old, we walked with dinos,things like that..
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BTownMeezer
Nov. 21st, 2012 at 8:37 pm
This country was founded on freedom of religion/freedom from religion To each person his own beliefs. These self-righteous idiots are far from being “good Christians”. Their hatred excludes them.
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Robert Chapman
Nov. 22nd, 2012 at 11:51 am
There is no historical evidence to support the idea that the early colonists or their successors in the colonial governments were free thinkers on religion.
All of the English colonies enacted blue laws that required attendance at weekly religious services, provided tax revenues for the support of the clergy, forbade gambling, swearing and working on the Sabbath.
Examination of the textbooks, curricula and school affiliations of the time shows that all of our educational institutions had religious affiliations until Horace Mann’s public school movement arose in the 1830s.
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Robert Chapman
Nov. 22nd, 2012 at 11:54 am
It is ironic, no, Mr. Metzer, that you can simultaneously reject Christianity and castigate its professed adherents as being bad Christians.
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Estproph
Nov. 27th, 2012 at 12:17 pm
Why can’t you understand the difference between when the colonies were founded and when THIS COUNTRY was founded?
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Shiva (Moderator)
Nov. 27th, 2012 at 1:35 pm
There were very few Colonies here that were here for religious freedom in the beginning. There were Colonies in the United States prior to Plymouth rock and they were here for commerce. Within 20 years of the puritans landing there were other settlements in this country shipping millions of pounds of resources to England. Religion might have taken part in events in this country however that is no different than any other country. Industry and commerce had far more place in the creation (And the colonization) of this country than any religion did.
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Lois P.
Nov. 21st, 2012 at 8:54 pm
As I sit here reading this article, I’m wondering if theses so-called “Christian” evangelicals realize just how many of us “white” folk were praying that GOD would not allow Romney/Ryan to be elected? Believe me, I know a LOT of us were praying right up to the last minute when Obama was announced the winner and it appears that God ANSWERED our prayers. How do you like them apples you fundamentalist evangelical “Christian” whiney babies???
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jkarov
Nov. 21st, 2012 at 8:58 pm
As long as Mormons, CHristians, Islamic people, Jews, Buddhists or Hindus keep their religion out of politics, and don’t try to force it on the rest of us, I’m fine with believing anything or nothing at all.
Don’t try to force your religion on me, my family, my city, my country.
Don’t try to force 12 year old girls who were raped to bear the rapist’s baby
Don”t try to force pregnant women who are dying in the ER from eclampsia to have the baby anyway.
Don’t force gays to be 2nd class citizens.
Don’t stick your nose into my bedroom, my Dr’s office, or my wedding ceremony
A true small government conservative would not do any of the above.”
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Robert Chapman
Nov. 22nd, 2012 at 11:58 am
Great comment Jkarov, how long do you think it will be before we get states out of marriage, declare all civil ceremonies civil unions ?
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Kevin Boyle
Nov. 23rd, 2012 at 3:41 pm
Too long. It can’t happen soon enough.
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majii
Nov. 21st, 2012 at 10:22 pm
Thanks to the mixing of RW politics and Christianity, many Christian fundamentalists seem satisfied with abandoning the principles on which Christianity was founded. They hardly notice the bastardization of Christianity because they’re too busy promoting/accepting/tolerating racism, hatred, and bigotry in the GOP for the sake of “saving” America for white Christian heterosexuals. What is amazing is that they complain endlessly about how “divided” the nation is but fail to realize that they and their actions/words/attitudes are a major cause of it. Analysis and/or self-introspection seem to be something many Christian fundamentalists don’t do very well. This is what allows the Bryan Fischers, Franklin Grahams, and Pat Robertsons of the world to continue using a bastardized form of Christianity to enrich themselves and their buddies in the GOP at their expense.
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Robert Chapman
Nov. 22nd, 2012 at 12:11 pm
I don’t think it is at all fair to impute the views of nut jobs like Todd Akin or Richard Moordock on tens of millions of ordinary faithful Christians.
Christians share deeply held moral beliefs that we believe are ordained by God and a mission to express this belief.
We are not entitled to rule by anything in scripture. Biblical passages such as the letter to the exiles in Jeremiah 29 and in all of the Pauline epistles require us to maintain good relations with our unbelieving neighbors.
Good relations are defined as good citizenship, honesty, obedience to civil law, respect for the persons, property and feelings of others and hard work to support ourselves financially.
One would hope that sober, industrious dedicated Christians behave in that manner.
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heubler
Nov. 23rd, 2012 at 9:32 am
“I don’t think it is at all fair to impute the views of nut jobs like Todd Akin or Richard Moordock on tens of millions of ordinary faithful Christians.”
Yet Christians are silent when they say these things. If you truly have respect for the religion you follow, it is incumbent upon YOU to loudly dissassociate your religion, from their wrong-headed beliefs. I didn’t read of a single religious organization objecting to their statements. Perhaps you would care to post a quoye from a religious leader criticising them? But the point remains that as long as your religious leaders are silent, when others of faith make these outrageous claims, you have no right to complain if others throw you in the same boat.
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JCM1953
Nov. 26th, 2012 at 5:38 pm
You are ABSOLUTELY correct. I am sick to death of mealy-mouthed Christians glossing over the rabid right-wing nuttery and hatred of their beloved brethren in Christ, and claiming that their own personal relationship with Jesus is the only thing they need pay ANY attention to.
I tried to say this on The Christian Left’s Facebook page. First they ignored me, then they posted a cartoon that said, literally, “Lord, what should I do about my hateful brethren?” The little earnest in-denial Christian gets a talk balloon from Heaven that says, “I’ll handle that.”
Now, where is the Bible is that? I criticized the Jesus navel-gazers, who claimed that their only task on earth was to “git closer to Jayzus” and not mess with any of this earthly-type nonsense, then I got banned.
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john r
Nov. 22nd, 2012 at 12:22 am
they are pretty much set in their ways… i half way expect some cult to go “Jonesville”
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nomad
Nov. 22nd, 2012 at 1:06 am
I just wish these people would learn to respect the strength and vibrancy of a diverse culture. I suppose they don’t realize that this is the one aspect that continues to draw immigration to America and to inspire nations around the world. Too bad both the religious right and the conservatives (who seem intent on dismantling any kind of social mobility and progress) are destroying all the things that Americans can point to with pride.
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SinghX
Nov. 22nd, 2012 at 7:50 am
Sigh…in simple terms, the old white fundamentalist have no concept that they are indeed “the old” and are being replaced by”the new”; this is something America does as part/parcel of our great experiment in democratic rule (actually all of history is full of these turn of events moments).
Jon Stewart did a great piece last week on how the Irish and Jews were villainized when they immigrated here, and, as a an ethic groups, they’ve survived due in part to the secular “American Dream”(and,he added, quite well, Mr. O’Reily and Mr Goldberg). Stewart also pointed out how Catholics and Jews were villanized endlessly in the later part of the 19th century; now it’s the Muslim and atheist turn.
They know (the old white evangelical fundamentalist) that their numbers are not good/they aren’t growing, no matter how they “pretend” to be the largest growing religion in the country (cults always lie about their numbers). Young people ARE turned off by them, as well as minorities who have their own faith (eastern religions)…they know that atheist are growing larger and larger as a movement day by day. They know that they are nothing more that a nova about to become dust scattered over the landscape.
They can cling to their “certainty” and go kicking and screaming into the night…I don’t care. But, they will take innocent people down with them…because they don’t care.
Because “they don’t care” about anyone outside their closed-loop-circle-jerk, we will see Jamestown, Waco, Ruby Ridge outburst. They have nothing to loose at this point. It’s a great way to get themselves lots of media attention and everyone talking about them as they try and control the conversation (we’re persecuted)…but not this time; time is up.
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Robert Chapman
Nov. 22nd, 2012 at 12:20 pm
Thank you Mr. Singh for your penetrating comments.
The US population now exceeds 315mm. This is an unprecedentedly large number of people vying for the resources to support the American life-style.
The US appears to be alone among the developed countries in continuing its population growth. Even China and India have effective population control measures and it appears population growth in Latin America is declining rapidly.
For continued economic health the US must balance its immigration with a broader population policy to slow our rate of population increase.
We will be challenged to slow the population growth rate and continue to accept immigrants without making the economy into a zero sum game between immigrants and native born Americans.
Although the flash point might now be religion, in the ensuing years, one can expect the American debate about immigration and its numbers to sharpen and intensify.
In my view attitudes that pit old against new, religion against religion, ethnicity against ethnicity are negative time wasters that detract from the real issues of providing decent standards of education, employment and retirement for ALL of our people.
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SinghX
Nov. 23rd, 2012 at 7:59 am
Mr Chapman, I can appreciate your economic concerns for global resources, but, simple terms, migration is going to continue and become even more horrendous due to environmental issues created by mega-industrialist (and politicians paid to play, like McCain) who ravage the earth –if history repeats itself, we’re headed for another Dust Bowl…
“…pit old against new, religion against religion, ethnicity against ethnicity are negative time wasters that detract from the real issues of providing decent standards of education, employment and retirement for ALL of our people.”
Not so fast…One again, avoidance the facts are not “waste” meant to distract. The fundamentalist evangelical radicals have made clear how education should be handled. They believe that the only necessary schoolin’ is maws home schoolin’. I’d say they pulled this concept right out of Steven Kings futuristic novel “The Gunslinger”, but if you ask them, they say it’s “biblical”…who knew?
And, they would like to inflict their “schoolin’” on the country via elimination of all public education allowing the parents and church to decide what book learnin’ their off-spring receive. Historically, this does not bode well for “ALL”…
Sorry Chapman, you may want to see standards for ALL but, that old time religion does not…they believe the almighty gives THEM authority to set the bar for ALL via Dominionism. I’ve read plenty about their schooling: the Quiverful Movement, Liberty University (Rev Moon $), Patrick Henry College, Jesus Camp, The Family of K-Street, etc., all of which are no more than authoritarian indoctrination mills that openly oppress women and hand-select males for dominion-style roles.
(I would link you to Warren Jeff’s disastrous order to remove the FLDS children from public school in order “bleed the beast”, but this format doesn’t allow me to go off page…)
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Anthony Brancato
Nov. 28th, 2012 at 3:25 am
But you people want to totally ban abortion and contraception, which would double the birth rate in this country.
Do that and it’s all over for the middle class in America, since the resulting downward pressure on wages and upward pressure on housing costs would turn us into another Mexico or Brazil very quickly.
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Robert Chapman
Nov. 22nd, 2012 at 12:03 pm
It seems much too soon, to declare the new mass immigration of non-Christians a success.
We have a very divided country, have had a civil war, a history of deep racial discrimination and genocide against the indigenous peoples with a common cultural and religious heritage.
Only time will tell whether we develop like France, Australia or the Netherlands or like Pakistan, Lebanon or Nigeria.
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SinghX
Nov. 22nd, 2012 at 12:58 pm
“…It seems much too soon, to declare the new mass immigration of non-Christians a success…”
First, when and what is “too soon”? This is always the same old message; “wait your turn in line”. It was a mentality pushed on African-Americans for decades until they said enough (same with women, gays)…the “your turn” never comes when there’s always push-back, as in Jim Crow laws, for example. “Too soon” is an example of avoidance of reality and equality.
Secondly, you cherry-pick. My comment included a variety of demographics–youth, atheist, plus those who worship amongst congregations that are non-Christian. I never used the word “immigrants”; that is your word for “the other” ; it is the the “old guard” that always see the “new” as interlopers (spoiler alert–those Irish, Jews, black/ brown/yellow “immigrants” have been here for several generations).
In addition, the movement away from Christianity didn’t just start “demographically” around the last election; there is nothing “new” here…You forget the that 60′s generation embraced eastern cultures and their religions. And, they have raised their children in those “other” religions (to include yoga as a spiritual path/paganism). Many Americans have chosen various forms Buddhism, Sikhism, Muslim, along with giving their children their “choice” as to what and who they wish to worship…something that cannot be said for Christian fundamentalist groups; Warren Jeff’s FLDS comes to mind.
Your idea that America can go with either the European model of “development” or a 3rd world “development is more black and white thinking
…literally. History does not bare out the premise of civilization dying out in a heap of woe because of an open melting pot society.
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KatzKids
Nov. 22nd, 2012 at 5:50 am
Question for the web gurus here. For the past three or more days, when I vote on comments, it’s not getting recorded. Seems to be working for others, any suggestions for me?
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SinghX
Nov. 22nd, 2012 at 7:20 am
Thank you for bringing this up–me too.
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KatzKids
Nov. 22nd, 2012 at 9:42 am
I was starting to feel all alone & could feel an inferiority complex coming on. LOL! Thanks for letting me know others are having the problem too.
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fedded-up
Nov. 22nd, 2012 at 11:03 am
I think everybody is having this problem. When I go back later, however, it looks like my vote is recorded – I guess it’s just not showing up in real time.
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TJ
Nov. 23rd, 2012 at 2:30 pm
Your votes were systematically re-routed to our main server in Texas. They will be returned to your local jurisdiction shortly. They have been altered to reflect your preference for Bush or Rmoney or whoever the hell we’re supporting now. Thank you for your concern. Karl Rove.
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Rho
Nov. 22nd, 2012 at 6:42 am
If they really want to live in a theocracy, they could move to Iran. We are still living in a plutocratic nation that uses the media to bend the unenlightened people to their will.
Get educated, whether on your own or through the many devices we still have at our convenience, and realise that knowledge is power. Once you have it, no one can take it away.
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Robert Chapman
Nov. 22nd, 2012 at 12:22 pm
Really Rho?
You can’t distinguish between the Mullah run nut house they have in Iran from even the worst of the American “theocrats?”
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robyn ryan
Nov. 22nd, 2012 at 2:23 pm
Turbans and beards?
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Cthulhu
Nov. 23rd, 2012 at 11:39 am
Yeah really. Or have you forgotten or jsut blithely ignored who it was that convinced Uganda to start killing gay people in Gods name? Hint: It was AMERICAN CHRISTIANS.
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Shiva (Moderator)
Nov. 27th, 2012 at 1:41 pm
There is very little difference between the fundamentalist extremists here at home and the Islamic extremists.
If you were to allow our fundamentalists power like they were trying to grab with candidates like Rick Perry and Michelle Bachman and very probably mitt romney you would see something that you would not have liked it all. All of these personhood bills come from our fundamentalist extremists. Taking away birth control if they were able to they would set religious law for you to live by. They’re trying to end the public school system simply to institute religious schools that the government can have no say in. You would not be impressed
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D. W. Skinner
Nov. 22nd, 2012 at 7:34 am
Evangelicals are the sole reason why a Republican will never be in the White House again.
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fedded-up
Nov. 22nd, 2012 at 8:40 am
EXACTLY. This is why I’m of two minds on this subject. Sure, this kind of stuff is offensive. But, with every hateful word they’re simply digging their own graves a little deeper. Who in the world (unless you’re a raging bigoted WHITE nutjob) would WANT to be a member of such a group?
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luciboo
Nov. 22nd, 2012 at 9:07 am
My votes are not recorded either. Thought it was just me. Please fix I enjoy rating the comments.
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TStMauro
Nov. 22nd, 2012 at 9:35 am
If the data is correct, and I think it is promising…more and more people are coming around to the atheist view. Religion will eventually pass away as a fad. Granted there will still be those people who hold on to quaint outdated beliefs, but they’ll be like the Amish—tourist attractions. “Please follow the rules–do not feed.”
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Christopher
Nov. 22nd, 2012 at 9:59 am
Two things I found hilarious:
God hates regulation – funny since there are plenty of regulations in the Torah.
God gave us an eyewitness account of Creation – Does Mr. Fischer realize that in courtrooms eyewitness accounts are seen as notoriously unreliable?
Before people give up on Christianity entirely keep in mind there is such a thing as progressive Christianity, though we tend to be quiter in the public arena. Mainline Protestantism in general is center-left and my denomination, the United Church of Christ, in particular trends rather liberal.
PS: I too am unable to rate comments at this time.
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A Walkaway
Nov. 22nd, 2012 at 11:28 am
“America- Love it or Leave it!”
SIGH. I’ve heard that many times.
When we protested against some of the things they’ve done to us (American Indians), that’s a favorite saying coming by the white evangelicals.
When one person was talking (on a radio show several years ago) about the sorts of things we were doing to try to recover our dignity and self-worth, he got it ranted at him by a “Good Christian”.
When we mention some of the laws that repress us even today (Florida’s laws about possession of feathers for instance), we regularly get “America, Love it or Leave it!”
You want to know what REALLY sets them off… when you tell them that this is OUR homeland, and has been so for thousands of generations, and that if they aren’t willing to be tolerant, that maybe they should leave.
(I once had an antisemitic guy outside of the library at our school screaming angry. He was ranting about “those horrible Jews” and how “they” were repressing Palestinians – a valid statement regarding Israel, but he was demanding all Jews be removed. I asked him whose homeland it was there in the mideast, and he hesitated. I then picked up a handful of soil and said “Well, this is OUR homeland and our promised land. If you’re not willing to tolerate the presence of others [he wanted all Jews expelled from America too], then maybe you should consider leaving.” He didn’t like that one bit.)
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harris stein
Nov. 22nd, 2012 at 11:30 am
If you watched the vice presidential debate between Joe Biden and Paul Ryan, a very interesting exchange took place when both Ryan and Biden declared that their Catholic faith determines their world view. That is all well and good, but here is the difference. Liberals like Joe Biden accept science fact and put it on a par with their faith. Science fact says the Earth is 4 billion years old and was created by random quantum fluctuations and our natural resources are finite and we should gaurd our resources instead of allowing anonymous corporations to rape the Earth and cause environmental havoc. On the other hand people like Ryan and his evangelical minions, denigrate science fact for their own self interests and selfish motives. This motivates them to claim that despite scientific fact, the Earth is only 6 thousand years old and was created by their sky god, not someone else’s sky god. This way they can get rich along with their corporate sponsers and then when our environment is destroyed they will tell us not to worry because their sky god will save the chosen few. Are Ryan and his minions serious? In a way they are. But they also know they are scamming people for their own financial self interest.
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Robert Chapman
Nov. 22nd, 2012 at 11:38 am
we hear often from the minority block of Evangelical voters, who comprise just 24 percent of the electorate
Survey research data support more than they refute this argument. Pew Research has asked people for over forty years to describe their religious and somewhere around 80% of Americans still claim to be Christians. Pew is a gold standard in survey research.
Nevertheless, the US Constitution explicitly forbids the establishment of religion and it would follow that whatever the level of popular support or affiliation for a religion, its adherents cannot incorporate it into law or use the government to support or spread it.
The practices Mr. Haraldsen has described are objectionable regardless of whether or not America has a changing religious orientation.
My take is that it is probably less threatening to Christians and more effective to frame the arguments against religious practice in public events in terms of the constitution’s anti-establishment clause instead of a form of virulent anti-Christian populism.
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A Walkaway
Nov. 22nd, 2012 at 11:01 pm
Christian does not mean evangelical or dominionist. I still (somewhat) consider myself Christian, although their attempts to convert or destroy my faith have been largely successful – in that they’ve very nearly committed spiritual murder (they will never convert me) and I am in no way remotely like them. I know a lot of people that would answer “Christian”, yet a majority of churches would reject them (for instance, Unitarians and Universalists can be Christian, but are not accepted in other churches).
It’s fairly well known that that 80% figure includes a lot of people who only go in a church to be baptized – married – buried, and that’s it. That’s like another answer that pollsters get – “Protestant” – as in there are two types of people, Protestant and Catholic. (Never mind any other religious orientation.)
That 80% figure is misleading, unless you understand the context and how people will respond.
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James Threadgill
Nov. 22nd, 2012 at 11:39 am
Their hate is the only thing that exceeds their mendacity. They are the misguided and mislead victims of the false prophets the Book they revere and ignore warns about. They besmirch the name of the Christian Faith across the USA and the world.
http://regressivewatch.org/wordpress/2012/09/28/who-would-jesus-hate/
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Eddie Powell
Nov. 22nd, 2012 at 11:50 am
It has been said by one of their most conservative thinker recently deceased.. On the matter of these types of christian faithfuls… Given any evil that has been done, there is not an evil that is off limits to these people in the name of, or on behalf of, their deranged christian beliefs. In fact down through history it has been proven time and time again.. that when a group don’t follow blindly they justify their evil actions by rearranging the scripture to fit their unholy purpose of destruction of the non-believers… The scripture specifically states that it is the evils of the governmental principalities, of flesh and bones that one has to beware of.. (Eph. chapter 6)… This is what the fundamentalists have become … Their own governmental principality made up of flesh and bones… During their evil under the disguise of freedom of religion under the constitution.. And claiming their interpretations are sanctioned by God and the scripture. It is not for one of us to give up on Christianity because of their loud voices… Instead it is for each of and everyone of us that truly believes continue to strive to make the tent of christ values what the word of God intended it to be… “Peace and mercy toward one another and love one another as self”… Then these crazies will eventually go by the way of of the old ford pinto….
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Anne
Nov. 22nd, 2012 at 11:58 am
What the “Christian” right is trying to do is the exact antithesis of what the Founding Fathers had in mind. In addition, their actions and words insult those who have migrated here in order to escape the kind of religious intolerance that is a blight on their existence in their countries. On top of it all, their hatefulness and hypocrisy contradict the teachings of the very person in whose name they claim to worship.
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A Walkaway
Nov. 23rd, 2012 at 10:31 am
It also depends on the Group. The “Beloved” Pilgrims, those “holy people”, came here specifically for two reasons.
1. To get rich. They believed that God shows “His” favor and gives hints about being “saved” by how wealthy and comfortable one is. If you were poor or suffering, well, it was evident that you weren’t one of the “Elect” and were suffering God’s wrath for being a sinner. That’s well documented.
2. To establish and to force a theocracy on the indigenous. They were planning on building a “City on a hill”, a “Light to the Nations”. Funny thing, but as we’ve learned, cities were always built on hills for defense from enemies. Freedom for anyone else was about as far from their minds as anything could get.
#1 was their primary reason. It’s pretty evident from source documents (as I learned in an early American History class, where we had to read excerpts of their writings and even a highly offensive book written by one).
After that class, my opinion of them switched from “early immigrants” to “Monsters who committed all forms of abuse and were the precursors to today’s dominionists”.
(They also were tossed out of the countries where they’d been living because they kept trying to force THEIR theocracy on others.)
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mommadona
Nov. 22nd, 2012 at 12:46 pm
Hmmm ~ I’m beginning to think these fools are now following SATAN ~ I mean ~ look at all that evidence!
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Basheert
Nov. 22nd, 2012 at 7:20 pm
Great comments.
I must say that to me, there is nothing more amusingly hypocritical than the Puritans in their colonies, passing blue laws and demanding church attendance while simultaneously attempting to exterminate the Native population that already lived here.
The current crop of RWNJ Evangelicals are so rabid, they turn most people off. I was a Christian – I no longer ascribe to religion nor do I find myself feeling a need. My life is happy and balanced.
Religion has been described as the opiate of the masses. All you need to do is look at the rantings and ravings of the Evangelical leaders to see this is true. And for many, the root of their religious screeching is money, not god.
I was raised to respect the difference in people. It is none of my business what or whether others believe.
Just stay out of my face with it.
We were founded as a nation free FROM religious requirement. Being a good American and citizen does not require I follow any particular faith. We are individuals. It’s who we are.
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Rick Tucker
Nov. 22nd, 2012 at 11:18 pm
I’ll never get the notion that there’s any such a thing as a Christian nation. The USA certainly isn’t. You’ve got to love these zealots and their assertions that Christianity occurs through some socialized osmosis while they beat you over the head with a bible and quote nonsense that’s not even in their own good book or rewrite context to suit their twisted take on their already contradictory tome.
It’s all pretty silly and thankfully not what that minority wants, anymore then we know of God without having God hammered into us by the same people who routinely misread their own book.
The only sad thing is the continuing indoctrination foisted on kids and gullible adults. It’s a shame you can’t bottle reasonable intelligence and give it away. Even with all the facts that can be found for free (like the fact that we’re NOT a “Christian” nation) on the internet people will embrace ignorance and deny themselves knowledge and wisdom. That doesn’t come through osmosis either.
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olandp
Nov. 23rd, 2012 at 10:06 am
I find it humorous that the people who spout “America love it or leave it” or “My country, right or wrong” are always using those phrases to defend the indefensible. Let us not forget, “God gives us the leaders that we need,” so, it would seem that we need Obama at this time. Since Obama won the election it must be God’s will. Pat Robertson has said that God lied to him about who would win the election. Now God is a liar, I guess we can’t believe anything He says any longer.
Mr Chapman points out the religious motivations in the founding of the English colonies. While that may be true, that motivation has no bearing on the founding of our country. Note colony as opposed to country. The founding fathers of our country made their intentions quite clear…
“Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.”
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Nativeson1
Nov. 23rd, 2012 at 10:50 am
While many Europeans came here for religious freedom in the 1600s, this nation wasn’t founded until July 1776, a hundred and fifty years later. By this time there was A period of enlightenment and scientific discovery and this was when the founding fathers wrote the constitution. They were as far removed from those first settlers as we are today from the founding fathers. If you want to say America is a Christian nation based on the people who arrived here 150 years before America existed, then you might as well say America is a nation founded on the principles of native Americans.
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A Walkaway
Nov. 24th, 2012 at 11:28 am
The fact is, IT WAS.
The constitution is modeled on the Great Peace of the Iroquois nation. Representative democracies were common among the tribes. Very few people have any idea of how complex or representative our government structures were.
The “Founding Fathers” were well acquainted with the Iroquois.
You’ve heard of Caucusing and Caucuses? It’s a Native American word… from a tribe in the area of Illinois/Indiana as I remember.
One other point – in many tribes, the women had not only their votes but also held the votes of their husband and children – and (the fundies should love this) their unborn children they were carrying.
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Tommy Jones the Band
Nov. 23rd, 2012 at 10:58 am
Until mankind outgrows this childish belief in a magic man in the sky, progress will be slowed by the people that use that gullibility to manipulate them into voting against their own interests.
And raising a child to believe in religion should be considered child abuse and punished accordingly.
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A Walkaway
Nov. 23rd, 2012 at 1:11 pm
It’s just as dogmatic and potentially offensive to insist there isn’t something there as it is to insist that there IS.
That’s a matter of personal belief, and BOTH are religious attitudes and points of view.
It can’t be tested, so it’s not science. Since it’s not science, it belongs in the realm of philosophy and religion. That brings it to personal experience and arguments.
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ElofWV
Dec. 1st, 2012 at 7:35 am
People should be able to ooga booga to anything they want to – heck, they can make pilgrimages to see stains on garage walls that look like preggers virgins. Who cares?
Just keep that superstitious savagery off my Country, off my body, and out of my laws. Do that weird stuff behind closed doors, please.
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Maranon
Nov. 23rd, 2012 at 1:06 pm
Jefferson while not a perfect man, was a great founding father, he was proud of the following accomplishment.
In 1786, the Virginia General Assembly passed Jefferson’s Bill for Religious Freedom, which he had first submitted in 1779
The law read:
“No man shall be compelled to frequent or support any religious worship, place, or ministry whatsoever, nor shall be enforced, restrained, molested, or burdened in his body or goods, nor shall otherwise suffer, on account of his religious opinions or belief; but that all men shall be free to profess, and by argument to maintain, their opinions in matters of religion, and that the same shall in no wise diminish, enlarge, or affect their civil capacities. ”
Our job is to protect this right.
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ElofWV
Dec. 1st, 2012 at 7:32 am
This is exactly why the churches need to be taxed. I am sick of paying for infrastructure they don’t pay for. I am sick of priests and ministers getting a complete tax write off on their housing and domestic help. They should pay like the rest of us and stop sucking off the public teat.
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Zong Xiong
Nov. 27th, 2012 at 8:58 pm
This entire article is extremely ignorant. You don’t realize that religion is what causes WARS?? WE, ARE A NATION OF CITIZENS WHO ARE BOUND BY IDEALS AND A SET OF VALUES!! The U.S wouldn’t be so called FREE if we were a christian nation, sure, the majority of the population here are Christians but there are Shamanists, Buddhists, Hindus etc.. in this nation too! You’re pretty much going against our OWN u.s constitution! FREEDOM OF RELIGION!! It is better this way! its a sanctuary for multi-religious people to live at! Christianity doesn’t always have to be the answer to anything! As long as you can pursuit happiness you should be happy enough!!
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Shiva (Moderator)
Nov. 27th, 2012 at 9:33 pm
Me thinks someone ducked and the entire article went right over there head. Not mentioning any names here
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Alex
Nov. 28th, 2012 at 12:01 pm
Um, Zong? I think you’re confusing the author’s point with the point the author was arguing against. Try reading the article again, slower this time.
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Alex
Nov. 28th, 2012 at 12:00 pm
I think that if you drew a Venn diagram of “The Religious Right” and “the anti-government Tea Party racists and plutocrats,” the overlap between those two major components of the Republican Party would probably be upward of 90%. Most of the plutocrats would probably fall in the small crescent of Tea Partiers outside the Religious Right bubble, but there aren’t so many of them.
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ElofWV
Dec. 1st, 2012 at 7:29 am
The science of Neurotheology will be a hot one to watch. So far they have found out that the brains of meditating monks most resemble the brains of those with dementia, indicating that ignorance, may indeed, be bliss. They have also found out that the same region of the brain that excites at the thought of God is the same spot that excites when people are admiring themselves.
In the movie, The Ruling Class, Peter O’Toole thinks he is God. When his cousin asks him how he knows he is God, he replies, “Simple. I find when I pray to Him, I am talking to myself.”
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