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Schooling Sarah Palin on the True Meaning of Feminism

August 19, 2010
By
Schooling a Petulant and Willfully Ignorant Sarah Palin on Feminism

Schooling a Petulant and Willfully Ignorant Sarah Palin on Feminism

I’m tired of Sarah Palin using the word feminist to describe herself. I was over it in 2008, but now I’m really over it. In fact, it’s unacceptable and this time, it’s personal.

Dear Sarah,

I saw your tacky tweet: “Who hijacked term:”feminist”?A cackle of rads who want 2 crucify other women w/whom they disagree on a singular issue; it’s ironic (& passé)”

Gosh, Sarah, I was just gonna ask you the same thing! Who hijacked the term feminist in 2008 and hurled it around like a weapon of mass destruction, or rather, a pre-emptive strike to defend themselves against a press corps having the nerve to ask her what she thought of the Bush Doctrine or ….God forbid….what she reads?

Who was that lady? Any idea? Let me give you a hint: she wore a lot of short skirts on stages (other women know better) with red peep-toe heels showing off her bedazzled toe-nails and she winked an awful lot – even more when she didn’t know an answer. Any takers?

This same woman criticized Hilary Clinton as a “whiner” and said Hilary was not doin’ us women any favors when she whined about the press being unfair. Yeah, if you see this woman, honey, will you let her know that she didn’t do us women any favors when she used her sex appeal as the one and only asset to make her worthy of being Dick Cheney’s patriarchal Barbie puppet? Will you let her know that I am super tired of men telling me that I look like the blond Palin and then treating me like a sex object?

Will you let her know that before she took to the national stage to set women’s rights back 100 years, these same men did NOT do that to me? Oh, and let her know that her catty accusations that liberal women are jealous of her is as ANTI-FEMINIST as you can get. Women who are feminists join together with their sisters, accepting them as they are in many shapes, sizes, colors, and degrees of external and internal success.

We don’t pit ourselves against one another based on an external thing such as perceived physical beauty, which is a tool of the patriarchy, by the way, you clown. I guess by now you’ve figured out that I’m talking about you, Sarah Palin. You. Your very use of this weapon shows you are not a feminist. It kicked you out of my tree house on day one.

Then I read your Facebook Page:

“On this anniversary of women’s suffrage, let’s take a moment to be grateful for the diversity of the debate. Women don’t walk in lockstep with each other in politics, any more than men do. We should be proud of our ability to engage in a civil discussion and healthy debate. I know I am. Unfortunately, I’ve recently come under attack for speaking up for sisters who seek to serve in public office. The sad part is that the attack comes from other sisters who happen to be on the other side of an issue that has been of great importance to American women from the time of our feminist foremothers, Susan B. Anthony and Elizabeth Cady Stanton, down to today. I’m speaking of the issue of life. I feel compelled to offer some advice to our sisters who like to throw stones at those of us who respectfully disagree with them on this issue (and they sometimes refuse to even countenance the fact that some of us can call ourselves feminists and disagree with those who claim the mantle of “real feminists”). First, ladies, it’s hard to take a critic seriously when they lecture you wearing a bear suit. So, it’s difficult for me to drum up much outrage at this latest ad. But, really, lying about a sister while wearing an Ewok outfit is no way to honor our foremothers on the eve of the 90th anniversary of their victory. But, that aside, I’d love to know where you got those get-ups. Halloween is just around the corner, and Piper and Trig would look adorable as little grizzly bears.”

Really, Sarah? Really? I’m not sure whether to laugh or cry. You pretend to be an independent strong woman who just happens to have conservative values but the truth is you let your husband run the Governor’s office for you, per your religion. You were a puppet governor.

Your husband gets to tell you what to read. Your husband is running the show. You don’t stand for anything feminine or female except the notion that women should subjugate themselves, and we don’t need a lot of help perpetrating that one, so thanks but no thanks….if you know what I mean.

MSNBC even called him the “shadow governor” after reading your emails, so please don’t deny this.

We are not having a difference of opinion over what feminism means.

You stand for the opposite of feminism. You stand for the good old boys running the show through yet another puppet. You are just the newest form of puppet. A female W. You are too arrogant and ignorant to realize that you were being used and are still being used by them.

Just because you can’t see it doesn’t mean we can’t. So we aren’t going to engage in a debate with you over what feminism means, and how you can be a feminist and think women shouldn’t have control over their bodies. You can claim the word feminist all you want, but that doesn’t make it true.

In the world of real feminine warriors, Sarah, women stand for the things and fight for things like equality and ending gender discrimination. Lily Ledbetter is still fighting for equal pay for women. In fact, she is talking to our troops about it. You know who Lily Ledbetter is, right? President Obama signed the Lily Ledbetter Act into being in January of 2009, making him a bigger feminist that you are. What are you doing for women, other than convincing them they shouldn’t have the right to get an abortion? And why aren’t you talking to the troops about equal rights for women, since you pretend to be so pro-troops?

Gosh, can you name one thing you have done for the troops besides use them to brand your Christian Nationalism as patriotic? See, this is exactly the same thing you’re doing with feminism honey. And you expect us girls not to notice.

What exactly are you doing for women with all of the power you’ve amassed?

And how does quitting the job you took an oath to uphold serve the cause of feminism? How exactly are you a quitting warrior? You said you quit because people picked on you, which served to reinforce the image of women as unable to play with the big boys. You lied when you said political opponents were picking on you, but even if it had been political opponents, you should have been able to handle that. You’re a grown up, right? Because, you know, sweetie, you sure don’t act like one.

You embarrass me almost every time you open your mouth. You make the skin on my arms crawl with trepidation when you try to cute your way out of an ignorant thing you’ve said. You make me cringe with horror with the way you play into stereotypes that many of us have been fighting against our entire lives.

That’s right, Sarah. You’re doing nothing but taking us back light years….and even the good old boys in the Republican Party are now starting to get sick of your Mama Grizzly routine; they’re saying you only pick these women because they’re women, which seems to be true and hence undermines those conservative women. And there are plenty of strong, conservative women whom I respect, so please spare us your attempts to say that any criticism of you is a criticism of all conservative women. It’s not. It’s just about you, honey. Trust me.

However, and here’s where you should really pay attention, a feminist won’t vote for another women just because she’s a woman. But you don’t get it yet. You’re so far in the dark ages that you still can’t see past the labels.

Sarah, you’re a mean woman who has treated other women like dirt. You demean the spirit of independence every time you use your obvious charm to wink your way out of being taken seriously. And you’ve earned my contempt for this.

You earned my contempt for it because I could do that if I wanted to….but I never wanted to. I have been trying to be taken seriously my whole life. And then you came along and pulled the rug from underneath me with your every gesture. You made it OK for men to treat women like a sex object again. You brought back the go along to get along spirit. You know exactly what I mean. In fact, you used your sex appeal at every turn. For goodness sake, you even came out in nothing but a towel to meet your new VP campaign team.

Yes. You use your sex appeal. And in doing so, you make it an expectation that women should be doing that. You make it OK for men to treat women like that. You also single handedly brought back the she can’t hack it in the big chair meme, because you refused to prepare for your interviews.

That is not what a feminist does, Sarah. A feminist from either side of the aisle would be soaking up knowledge, doing the best job she could, and realizing she was paving the way for other women, would present herself in a way that opened doors for other women to be treated as humans, not as sex objects. And a feminist would not have resorted to crying “sexism” when the press asked you what you read.

Nor, honey, would a real feminist have taken the kind of pot shots you took at Katie Couric in interviews and in your book. Frankly, your failures are your own problem and your inability to face up to them is a reflection on the weakness of your character, not the meanness of a supposedly jealous or unhappy woman.

We’re not jealous, Sarah. That’s what you are too ignorant to understand. You have to see something to know it exists, and you can’t see us. You project the smallness of your mind and heart onto all of us, and assume we all judge other women by their looks and their houses and what car they drive.

We don’t.

It’s personal, Sarah. And it’s not going to stop. You’re not a real feminist. There’s a huge difference between using feminism as a political tool to get yourself elected and being a true feminist. True feminists come in all shapes, sizes and political beliefs. But they don’t use sex as their only asset to sell themselves to the pubic. They read, they study, and they show a general competence.

The dictionary definition of feminism is “the doctrine advocating social, political, and all other rights of women equal to those of men.” In no way do you stand for that, Sarah. In no way have you ever worked toward these goals as an elected official. In no way do you use your celebrity to accomplish these goals or even raise awareness about the inequities. In fact, you often pretend they don’t exist and chide women for “whining” about them.

Your obliviousness over your own inherent anti-feminism would be funny if you weren’t so damaging.

You’re a puppet. You don’t stand for me and you never will.

Kindest Regards,

Not that Sarah

P.S. Love your reference to women like me as “cackle of rads”. And you call yourself a feminist, Sarah. A cackle is a bird, typically a hen or goose. Could you be any more 1950′s, sweetie?

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39 Responses to Schooling Sarah Palin on the True Meaning of Feminism

  1. Hrafnkell Haraldsson on August 19, 2010 at 4:01 pm

    Brilliant piece, Sarah!

    And to Sarah Palin, no, getting your boobies enlarged doesn’t make you a feminist any more than it makes you a Barbie Doll. It’s what goes on in your brain, and to judge by what comes out of your mouth, that’s not much.

    • Sarah Jones on August 19, 2010 at 4:06 pm

      Thank you Hraf…..You put it perfectly:-)

  2. brainwise on August 19, 2010 at 4:04 pm

    Excellent use of “sweetie” … though I’m sure the irony will be lost on the target.

    • Sarah Jones on August 19, 2010 at 4:09 pm

      Ah, you got it:-) So rare. The fact that most of the Palin fans miss this says everything.

      • G Katz on August 19, 2010 at 6:42 pm

        It’s clearly above their pay grade.

  3. lalamen on August 19, 2010 at 4:17 pm

    Smackdown!

  4. G Katz on August 19, 2010 at 6:15 pm

    Awesome. But who’s going to read it to the Puppet with a Bumpit?

    • Hrafnkell Haraldsson on August 19, 2010 at 6:20 pm

      And who will then explain it to her?

  5. Oldsun on August 19, 2010 at 6:32 pm

    I know I use this line to much but it just fits this time “This woman does for feminism what Jonestown did for KoolAid”

    • Hrafnkell Haraldsson on August 19, 2010 at 9:54 pm

      Ouch!

  6. Shiva on August 19, 2010 at 6:52 pm

    Eloquently and succinctly put Sarah

    • Sarah Jones on August 19, 2010 at 10:55 pm

      Thanks, Shiva! I really appreciate that — esp from a long time reader like you:-)

  7. C.L. on August 19, 2010 at 8:53 pm

    Excellent post, Not That Sarah! You said everything I’ve been thinking about this miserable excuse of a “professional” woman.

    I went into medicine when the medical school classes were still only 25% women. I chose a medical specialty which had only 10% women, and then a subspecialty which had only 1% women.

    I had to work twice as hard as the men to be given the same respect as the men — so I worked three times as hard.

    One of the most difficult lessons we had to teach male colleagues is that “professional” is NOT gender-based.

    My fellow female physicians and I worked for decades to break down the patriarchal stereotypes in one the most-entrenched “good ole boys” professions. The benefactors of our work are today’s women who desire a career in medicine. Medical school enrollment for women is now often 50% or greater.

    Then along comes Sarah — who delights in putting sex and gender back into business and politics. She is trying (wittingly or unwittingly) to destroy “professionalism” and replace it with female (Mama Grizzly/ Pitbull with lipstick) stereotyped “roles” again.

    Of course, Palin’s apologists will come to her defense that I’m an “ugly liberal dyke who’s just jealous of Sarah’s beauty.” After I finish laughing, I will direct them to talk with my male colleagues who tried to grope me on night call, the male patients who tried to pull me into their beds while whispering about their hard-ons, and the Chief of the Department who caressed my hair and told me how lucky my husband was and “why aren’t you home taking care of him and your daughter.” (That same Chief also tried to make my salary 25% below my male colleagues of similar rank, justifying it by saying “Your husband is a physician who makes an excellent salary, but your male colleagues have wives who don’t work.” A threat of lawsuit and another female physician’s resignation changed his mind.)

    I never quit. I’m proud to be a “professional” who didn’t exploit my gender to open doors (or “plow through doors.”) Hard work, intelligence, courage, endurance, and integrity opened my doors — and those traits are HUMAN traits, not gender traits.

    I’ve yet to see Mrs. Palin exhibit an abundance of any of these traits. She prefers willful ignorance, cowardice, truculence, petulance, mendacity, vindictiveness, self-adulation, bigotry, avarice, coy concupiscence, immaturity —- and quitting when things get tough. Not my idea of a mature adult or a true professional, much less a feminist.

    • Hrafnkell Haraldsson on August 19, 2010 at 9:56 pm

      Beautiful, eloquent, and heartfelt, C.L.

    • Sarah Jones on August 19, 2010 at 10:54 pm

      That was beautiful, CL.

      • C.L. on August 20, 2010 at 4:15 am

        Thanks, Hraf and Sarah, for the kind comments.

        Reading back over my post, I see I typed “benefactors” when I meant “beneficiaries.”

        The most disappointing aspect of Mrs. Palin’s attempt to style herself as the new face of “feminism” is her access to enormous publicity. With such a high profile, she could have advanced society’s respect for women’s contributions, rights, and potential. As it is, she’s squandered that massive publicity with divisive, ignorant rhetoric and petty personal behavior. While her dwindling fan base clings to the mythical image she’s created about herself, the rest of the world laughs uproariously at her expense. What a waste.

    • krbmjb05 on August 19, 2010 at 11:53 pm

      Sarah,

      As mentioned on Twitter today, I was SO moved by your post today as it said everything I was feeling as well. I typically do not post “political” links on my facebook page, but I couldn’t help myself today. I know there are a “few” friends that wouldn’t take too kindly.

      One “friend” posted something on the story but deleted before I was able to read, but I went to her page and she shared your story on her facebook with the following comment:

      “Everyone has the right to their opinion, but this is by far the most hateful thing I’ve read in a very long time. It’s one thing to disagree with Sarah Palin, but this article is a personal attack on so many levels. The author even professes to know what goes on between Sarah Palin and her husband, just because MSNBC s…aid so. The author accuses Palin of judging other women by their looks, while in the same breath ridiculing Palin’s clothing, shoes, toenail polish and sex appeal. Pot/Kettle? Please pray for our country.”

      Truth hurts! She didn’t say that any of it wasn’t TRUE, but personal! Thanks for giving me hope today that many women are willing to speak out against the Faux-Fembot that is Palin.

      • Sarah Jones on August 20, 2010 at 1:54 am

        Thank you so much for your feedback. I am used to those people saying hateful things and to be honest, it doesn’t bother me one bit. I write the truth as I see it, and I am very careful to be factual – but in this case, this is my opinion, based upon facts and my own personal feelings as a woman.

        Your friend is entitled to see things the way she does — that’s part of what makes this country so great:-) But yes, Palin’s emails reveal that her husband ran the state for her. This is a fact, it’s not a matter of opinion. And it does seem that your friend missed the pretty obvious point about why I was discussing Palin’s clothes. Palin chose to dress a certain way and present herself in a certain light. She spent a pretty penny to do so, in fact (over 150,000.00 in a short 7 weeks). It’s not as if her clothing were an accident.

        I will continue to speak out against Sarah Palin and the people who prop her up as a weapon against women’s rights. There isn’t anything they haven’t said about me at this point:-) Most of their insults are inaccurate and desperate anyway, which I find rather sad. Please don’t let those folks get you down. They’re heavily invested in a scam.

        Thank you for the encouragement and for letting me know that it matters to other women as well:-)

    • BeeEss on August 21, 2010 at 1:25 am

      Thank you for your service!

  8. lexcade on August 19, 2010 at 10:46 pm

    sarah, i love you. that’s all i have to say.

    • Sarah Jones on August 19, 2010 at 10:52 pm

      Wow:-) That made me smile from ear to ear.

  9. DeeinOK on August 19, 2010 at 10:47 pm

    Sarah,

    Best piece on Sarah Palin I have read to date. I hope this piece goes viral and you get an opportunity to expound on this on a national stage–perhaps a “lame stream media outlet”.

    Really, really nice work. You expressed what all of us are thinking and feeling…

    Thank you.
    Dee

    Best Wishes.

    Dee

    • Sarah Jones on August 19, 2010 at 10:54 pm

      Thanks Dee. I am so glad it resonated with you. I sure appreciate the feedback and encouragement:-)

  10. Lisabeth60 on August 19, 2010 at 11:50 pm

    Another great article Sarah. When she first referred to herself as a feminist, I wanted to scream!

  11. krbmjb05 on August 20, 2010 at 12:59 am

    Sarah,

    I had my hubby read your article, and he said “Very well put. Too bad more people don’t see Sarah Palin in the same light because she represents everything I don’t like about my party.”

  12. steve on August 20, 2010 at 10:00 am

    Outstanding article, using humor and irony to make an important point. We live in an interesting time. Many Americans assumed that the difficulties of the past were over. By this I refer to the civil rights issues and feminist issues. It’s taken Palin and the reactions to President Obama to demonstrate we, as a country, have more work ahead of us.

    Palin has been a lightening rod for the small minded among us. Because of Palin’s arrogance and ignorance (I’m borrowing your phrase as it fits so well), we can fight against the illusion that there are no differences.

    I plan on linking to your article on other blogs, because it’s one of the best I’ve seen.

    Keep up the great work, it’s appreciated.

  13. My 2 Cents on August 20, 2010 at 6:50 pm

    Don’t hold back on us now, tell us how you really feel, Sweetie? Passionate is one word that comes to mind after reading Your opinion on feminism, but it is quickly followed by anger, bitterness, jealousy and threatened. You just really don’t like this woman, do you? Not one little bit, not on any one issue., or any issues for that matter.
    I read your “bio” at the bottom of the article and frankly all of your experience, degrees and education combined, somehow did not buy you an ounce of class, Hun.
    Sarah seems to really hit a nerve with you and far as I can tell, it’s a real stinger! The two of you are on opposite sides of the issues, plain and simple. That’s what makes America great. Get over it, get over your obsession with her while you’re at it. Gezzzz. or should I say Grrrrrr. :-)

    • EnglishSaddle on August 21, 2010 at 12:27 am

      LOL. Jealous? Gosh, that’s “new”. Doesn’t C4P update their daily insult talking points?

      Speaking of class, just when will Sarah Palin be giving those clothes back? And when will she pay for her house? Or the taxes on one of her many vacation homes?

      Sarah Palin is a wanna be social climbing catty loser without an ounce of class. She and Todd can’t even go to a high society function and fit in for a few hours without making utter hillbilly fools of themselves. This woman would be an utter disaster representing this country at diplomatic affairs!

      You people are seriously deranged and so sick. You don’t even see how your reply proves the point of the article! Wait a minute…is this Sarah Palin? LOL. I wouldn’t doubt it. Better check the IPs!

    • Scott on August 21, 2010 at 8:59 am

      “Opposite sides of the issues”?? Are you kidding? Sarah Palin’s inability to articulate a rational stance on an issue (much less offer a solution to one) is why people are abandoning her message in droves. As a registered Republican, I am embarrassed by my party and proudly voted for Obama as an alternative to the poor treatment of me, a member of the constituency the party was supposed to be representing.

  14. James Bain on August 20, 2010 at 9:09 pm

    Sarah, it appears to me that the overwhelmingly tragic aspect of this rant is you’re singing to the choir. The chances of this coming to the attention , much less changing the attitudes of folks who believe wholeheartedly that the shrieking little popinjay is just so wonderful it makes them want to jump out of their skins is on the order of me becoming the queen of Scotland sometime in the next ten centuries.
    What’s the solution? As a rational man, I see no rational solution. As an irrational man, in my ideal world, I would be standing over such paperweights that breathe with a baseball bat full of nails, surveying a charnel house. But I am a rational man.
    And so, I must fall back on ridicule, that tried and tested means of bringing even the most powerful to their knees. As Mark Twain once remarked, “I’ve never killed a man, but I’ve read many an obituary with great pleasure.”.
    Now, where was that newspaper…..

  15. Ur 2 cents plus a dollar on August 20, 2010 at 9:53 pm

    It appears that if anyone got a stinger, it’s “My 2 Cents”. I noticed how you didn’t say any of facts were wrong. Your response in the mantra of the SP hypocritical double standard. She can be the “mean girl” and throw out computer comments without challenge, but GOD FORBID if anyone responds in kind. If she prefers to hide behind her blackberry and computer, we’ll come to HER via the same.

    Telling “Not that Sarah” to get over it is JUST the reply that the 1/2 term quitting governor would say. But you and your queen will need to realize, nobody is going to “get over it”, as long as she spews her lies and hate in our country, she will be called out on it.

    Perhaps if she ever agreed to actually SPEAK and debate her policies, if she HAS any, than we can have a TRUE discussion. Until then, we’ll communicate in the only mediums that she (and her ghostwriter) are familiar with – twitter (can only handle a message in 140 characters or less) and Facebook.

  16. ManxMamma on August 21, 2010 at 9:42 am

    Thank you for expressing so clearly exactly how I feel.

  17. Gina Nardoianni on August 21, 2010 at 9:49 am

    Whew! I so enjoyed that! With every fiber of my being.
    Sarah Palin disgusts me on such a level that I find it nearly impossible to articulate adequately or succinctly. (Can one be succinct in summing up the vile, revolting and wretched abomination that is Sarah Palin?)
    Well, you’re bookmarked, gal pal!

  18. DebLee on August 21, 2010 at 10:08 am

    Ever read or watched the film “The Handmaiden’s Tale?” If so, you know what I mean when I say that Palin reminds me of an “Aunt.” One of the women at the reeducation center for the Handmaids. I have no doubt that Palin would consider it her “duty” to bring about a christian revolt wherein women would be no better off in this country than we would be in a country immersed in Sharia law. The thought of Palin every accumulating any power is indeed fearsome for ourselves and our daughters.

  19. ericmiami on August 21, 2010 at 10:28 am

    Really, really, nice, Ms. Jones. Thank you.

  20. SalG on August 21, 2010 at 6:20 pm

    Get your Cackle of Rads membership card:

    http://tildology.com/2010/08/20/cackle-of-rads-membership-card/

  21. F Joy on August 22, 2010 at 1:00 pm

    I have been so turned off by what’s happening on the 24 hour news cycle that I had to seek out Politicususa just to get a breather for my brain. This post brought a smile, hope for the future, and sanity to a moment that was so really needed. The media and political power given to Sarah Palin for a misleading twitter comment or Facebook statement is so dangerous and outrageous on so many levels, it often leaves me in shock at the state of our news sources. From the day Sarah Palin delivered her speech at the GOP convention in 2008 with the “wink” and the “lipstick” comment, I knew trouble was coming big time. Her critical remarks about our President have incited racism on a level unseen for some time. What I credit Sarah Palin with is awakening the sleeping giant of hate, ignorance and bigotry.
    Even though she shoots animals, she’s a coward and an opportunist in real life. She exploits her children for political gain. She’s against abortion but wanted to charge rape victims for their own rape kits. She quit on the people of Alaska because the ethics claims were going to cost her and she discovered from campaigning that she was popular and could make a ton of money by simply making false claims against the Obama administration. She has had time to educate herself and get skilled on interviewing and really understanding national and international government, but she refuses to do so. She remains clueless and continues to demonstrate her ignorance. She spoke against a sitting President on foreign land while speaking in China. Sarah Palin is scary on so many levels. What astounds me is how many Americans buy into her crap. Sarah speaks for the “good old boys” who are actually running the propaganda. That’s why Fox supports her. It must be difficult on some level to even share the same first name. I applaud you Sarah Jones for your intelligence, your humor, your courage, your spirit and your genuine feminism! I do hope that more of your writings go main stream. You are a rare gem. And thank God you are not that Sarah!

  22. Anne on August 26, 2010 at 1:51 pm

    Playing the victim, depending on sex appeal in the absence of intelligence or knowledge, and inciting hatred are anything but “feminist” qualities. It has nothing to do with being conservative or liberal, and everything to do with being judged and fairly compensated for one’s talents and merits. Feminism also involves an inclusive world view that supports progress for all women instead of reverting to the kind of mindset that led to the women’s movement in the first place.

    It’s really pathetic that many of her followers attribute the animosity against her to “liberal female jealousy,” when it’s obvious that many Republican men and women are also keenly aware of this woman’s numerous shortcomings. I have seen numerous postings on this and other forums that confirm my observation. We are not talking about a high school level popularity contest, but about an emotionally stunted and intellectually bankrupt middle-aged woman who aspires to political power. The fact that she could become so ascendant speaks volumes about the fact that this country has a long way to go, in spite of the fact that we have come a long way.

  23. Sarah Palin's Legacy of Ignorance on September 13, 2010 at 4:35 pm

    [...] never going to be absolute consensus by every American, and there are those issues, again, like Roe v. Wade, where I believe are best held on a state level and addressed there. So, you know, going through [...]

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