The protests and demonstrations in Wisconsin over Governor Scott Walker’s attempt to break the back of organized labor at the direction of the Koch Brothers have brought forth a barrage of lies and misinformation from Fox News, The Heritage Foundation, and Tea Party groups meant to subvert the narrative into an attack on America. As support grows for the public employees protesting for nothing more than the right to bargain collectively, conservatives have ramped up the level of noise and misinformation to enrage citizens ignorant of the nature of the protests and on a larger scale, union representation.
The issue in Wisconsin is not the budget or that teachers, police officers, and firefighters are making too much money, but simply the right to bargain for wages. Without collective bargaining, the governor has the right to dictate the wages and working conditions public employees must accept without recourse or input into the process. If one were to listen to conservative pundits, public employees are draining the state treasury and thumbing their noses at taxpayers while their students are failing miserably. Although that nonsense plays well with tea party members who believe all public employees are bad and Republicans who are hell-bent on privatizing every last vestige of government, it is nothing but propaganda.
There are many misconceptions about employee unions that the public is unaware of because they only hear that unions are anti-American. Union representation only gives its members a collective voice during negotiations and little else. Wisconsin’s governor has singled out public school teachers, but his bill affects all unions and their members including firefighters, policemen, and various civil servants. Walker has targeted teachers because in general, people revere police and fire fighters as a necessary part of society and are less inclined to think of them in a negative light. Conversely, teachers are thought of as little more than overpriced babysitters who have jobs they cannot be fired from and are draining valuable resources from the rest of society.
Society as we know it owes a debt of gratitude to public school teachers for teaching every student who steps into their classrooms. Unlike other professions, teachers do not get to pick their clientele and do not have the luxury of picking their curriculum. A popular misconception is that once a teacher is granted tenure they cannot be terminated. Tenure is a guarantee that a school administrator cannot fire a teacher without a reason. Teachers who have not yet been granted tenure face the possibility of termination for no reason whatsoever. If tenure meant a teacher could not be laid off or fired, how are school districts able to lay off teachers when budgets require it? The tenure myth is being propagated in every state in the nation by conservatives who promote school vouchers as a means of privatizing schools.
The Heritage Foundations is promoting the lies that teachers in Wisconsin are responsible for the state’s budget deficit, poor performance and low graduation rates, and draining the state treasury by getting free pensions. Teachers pay in to retirement accounts just like every other employee in the country only at a higher rate than Social Security. They also pay for their health insurance at a rate negotiated by the state. Teachers lost as much of their retirement during the financial meltdown as any other investors, and unlike Social Security contributions, have no recourse to recoup any losses. When Wisconsin’s governor took office, there was a budget surplus that he immediately gave to oil companies in the form of tax credits. One thing is abundantly clear; the governor’s ban on collective bargaining will not fix the state’s budget woes and he knows it. What is clear is that Wisconsin’s teachers enjoy a graduation rate that is the envy of the country and it has everything to do with the quality of its teachers.
The graduation rates of states that have outlawed collective bargaining occupy the very bottom of 50 states. For example, Virginia’s rate is 69%, Texas’ rate is 65%, North Carolina is 63%, and Georgia’s rate is 56% and rank 46 – 49 of 50 states. Wisconsin’s graduation rate is 82% and is the second highest in the nation. Wisconsin’s teachers are doing a great job, and are intelligent enough to know the economic climate means they will have to make sacrifices by taking pay cuts. Teachers all over the country have taken drastic pay cuts and furlough days to do their part in a bad economy and they do it gladly. However, when the economy is in better shape, they want the ability to bargain for a fair wage and without collective bargaining, they lose that capability.
There is one other misconception about unions that the general public is unaware of and that is if a teacher wants to, they can sign a form that states they do not want any part of their dues going to political parties the union lobbies. It is a way of guaranteeing that a Republican teacher will not have one penny of their union dues going to Democratic candidates and it is ultimately fair to all members.
As many writers have propounded over the past week or so, Governor Walker is doing the bidding of his sponsors and contributors the Koch Brothers who are rabid to break the back of organized labor. Because they are too cowardly to state their purpose, they have enlisted the Heritage Foundation, Fox News, and tea party members to spread lies and misinformation about teachers and public employee unions. It is interesting that Governor Walker told police and firefighters that they are immune from the ban on collective bargaining, but once the ban is in effect, it applies to all organized labor. Walker does not want to alienate voters by risking the support of those two groups. Apparently, Governor Walker miscalculated the solidarity of all union members because they all share the same benefit and that is collective bargaining.
The misinformation and lies from conservatives should not be surprising to anyone who has lived through the last decade. Unions have always faced opposition from corporations, conservatives, and even religious groups who claim unions are full of godless liberals and anti-American communists. One thing is certain though, union workers are held to a higher standard of performance because of standards set by the unions and not the private sector. They also know that if they go to the union with a grievance, their performance had better be at the highest level or the union will not intervene in their behalf.
Governor Walker on the other hand, has incurred the wrath of all union members around the country because one misconception he had was that it was just one group of union members he was mistreating. That should now be put to rest because when he picked on one segment of the union family, he picked on millions, and although the Koch brothers have unlimited resources, they are just two men. Two very evil men who may have underestimated the power and solidarity of millions of workers who teach, fight crime and fires, and stand together against lies and misinformation. It is refreshing to finally see Americans wake up and stand against tyranny from an oil company and their shill in the governor’s mansion.
Related posts:
- The Wisconsin Protesters Meet The Iron Fist of Koch Industries
- Tea Party Patriots Not Obama Are the Real Faces of Tyranny
- Freedom’s Real Enemy is Rush Limbaugh Not The Wisconsin Protesters
- All 14 Wisconsin State Senate Democrats left the state, let’s help them!
- Are you watching what’s happening in Wisconsin?
SEIU had a rally today in Indy…a bit far to drive for something at 9 am that you find out about that morning! Not to mention the weather, which is ice today. I wish I could have attended though! Thank you for writing this, Rmuse. It’s such an important issue. That idea that unions are the reason for any state deficit is ridiculous and this push for oligarchy by the ultra-rich should stick in the craw of all right-thinking Americans. Great job!
We have the late Ronald Reagan to thank for the pattern of disempowering unions. Instead of listening to the air traffic controllers who went on strike due to working conditions, he fired them. His sycophants foolishly cheered him, because they are the very ones who worship the John Wayne-type caricatures of “leaders,” currently represented by McCain and Palin. There are people in Wisconsin who are cheering Governor Walker because they see him as doing what they elected him to do. But unless they are among the very wealthy, they are in for a rude awakening if he and his ilk prevail
The size of the protest, as well as other events occuring in states like Ohio, underscore the fact that Governor Walker made a huge error in judgment. Like a lot of other newly elected Tea Partiers, he mistakenly thought he had a mandate. Actually, the ascendancy of people like him is a significant result of Democrats who failed to appreciate the importance of each election. Walker overestimated his popularity and underestimated the will of people who refuse to be patsies for him and his cronies. It’s so ironic that the Tea Partiers did so much blabbing about tyranny and taking the country back. Now, we see exactly who the real tyrants are. As for the Koch brothers, who are financing these coordinated assaults on the rights of American workers, they are devoid of humanity and empathy toward others. They consider the poor, minorities, and unionized workers lesser humans, and they couldn’t care less about Americans as long as they manage to enact their reactionary agenda.
I agree, Anne. Gotta wonder if the Tea Baggers believed their own press, that they actually represent “Joe the Plumber” – clearly, they do not. They represent the ultra-rich ultra-white corporate interests of men like the Koch Brothers. Ooops on an epic scale.
You guys are completely backwards on what the tea party represents. The idea that the tea party cares about a dummy like Joe the Plummer is asinine, that’s the Tea Party Nation a group funded by neoconservatives and fox to co-opt the tea party movement for their ends. In some respects it has worked as evidenced by your misunderstanding. But when it comes to those who have listened to representative Ron Paul (The progenitor of the Tea Party), the people who lamentably understand that things are going to get a whole lot worse unless there are drastic changes in foreign policy, and what the role of government ought to be, have to just deal with articles like this in the meantime… But aside from just that tolerance we should get basic on exercising our rights, not alienating and attacking one anothers ideology without being open to UNDERSTANDING anothers’.
Why did you play the race card. My guess is because you really don’t have an arguement. Your state is bankrupt and you still can’t make tough decision just like all wussy dumocrats. You’ve been in control for decades and now the republicans are forced to fix your greed. It is time for the dumocrats to just shut up and get out of the way and let intelligent people put you back on the right track. Enjoy the ride and learn.
We did learn. From 2000-2008 And we are still paying for it. And here you are ignoring the fact that the Governor dropped a surplus into the corporations and expects the workers to take up the slack. Yes, we are learning
The real issue is not whether they can bargain over wages, but whether they can bargain over working conditions. Classes of fifty students, unwholesome buildings that are fire hazards, inadequate protection from violence, absence of preparation time and decent textbooks all hinder a teacher’s ability to carry out her/his job. I won’t even go into stuff like religious/political pressures and heavy-handed political control. Let’s just say that if the average Joe and Mary Parent want a decent future for their kids without mortgaging the house to pay a private school, they’d better understand this isn’t about eeevil libruls and greeedy unions.
The good news is this, Like Meg Whitman in california, no matter how much money The Koch’s and Fox throw at something… people have the real power of choice.
The same was true when they couldn’t get the other 2 members of the Nutcase Trio elected–namely Sharron Angle of Nevada and Christine O’Donnell of Delaware. The Koch brothers and their ilk were counting on the apathy and unawareness of history of some Americans in order to enact their toxic agenda. The fact that they have been able to convince some among us that the “parasitic” unions are responsible for the economic crisis in this country shows that their message has had some resonance. It reminds me of some of the responses of those who objected to the Civil Rights Movement.
Instead of objecting to the injustices that gave rise to that movement, they criticized the protesters and freedom fighters for disturbing the peace. Apparently, it didn’t occur to them that there is no true peace without justice. I see the same kind of mentality in the critics of the Wisconsin protesters.
They have identified with the powerful, and they fail to look at the big picture.
If unions are ever dismantled in this country, they also have a lot to lose.
That’s because the benefits they take for granted would be denied to them as well.
The scooter and kock bros mistake is in the population of Wisconsin…5 generations of union members! The basis and backbone of a strong middle class is the worker! That includes patriots !
None of the union members are stupid as the kock perpetrators are trying to advance….January 3, 2012 is the recall date for walker..some state repubs can be recalled now! The petitions are out there ;;;Do support the effort !
Ian’s in Madison is the pizza place serving the protesters— Just costs a phone call and $15.00…
Do not let the wealthy continue to rape the middle class!
cant you post ians pizza number so folks can call
Sorry ..edhino…thru it out and had to find again
1.608.257,9248 Ian’s
tidbit:
According to the Wisconsin Department of Revenue, two-thirds of corporations in the state pay no taxes, and the share of corporate tax revenue funding the state government has fallen by half since 1981.
As a retired GA teacher since 2009, I understand exactly why GA’s graduation and SAT rates linger way below those of other states, because I had to deal with issues that contributed to them for over 30 years. One of the first things republicans did when they gained access to state and local boards of education was to impose a cookie cutter type of curriculum on all students for all subject areas. There is no longer an emphasis on developing our students’ critical thinking skills. The focus is now on teaching students to pass standardized tests and meeting AYP under GWB’s NCLB. There is also a mentality among students and their parents that they should always be given A’s and as many chances to turn in late work as possible. IMO, this has given them a false sense of accomplishment and hamstrings them when it’s time for them to take graduation tests and college admissions exams. Discipline is no longer the province of administrators, many of whom don’t want to be bothered with having to deal with it. Teachers now have to handle the majority of their discipline problems and are often ordered to “handle their discipline problems in their own classrooms.” Oftentimes, the parents teachers need to see at school events don’t bother to show up. The only time some of these parents show up is when they think their kid has received some kind of “unwarranted” discipline like ISS, Saturday Work Study, or suspension from school for a period of time. IMO, teachers are overloaded with too much work that has little to do with providing instruction for their students. In addition to lesson plans and preparing for class, they have professional learning days that take them away from their students, are often ordered to participate in pet projects that some legislator in Atlanta is pushing that adds to their work load, are responsible for notifying parents when students have accumulated a certain number of absences, etc. IOW, teachers are performing many of the services that normally would be done by the registrar, office staff, school social worker, truancy officer, and school counselor. Many Americans don’t realize just how much teaching entails, or that they get a lot of bang for their buck from teachers, if one would compare the amount of work that they do for the pay to that of someone in the private sector providing the same/similar services.
Majii, when I moved here to Tennessee from Michigan, I was teaching 20 year olds quality control skills that couldn’t write a sentence or read one either. they went through the whole school system
Here Here Majii. Cookie cutter teaching DOES NOT WORK. We need to free educators (teachers, administrators, etc). Freedom to change curriculum, freedom to discipline appropriately, and freedom to reward great teachers and eliminate poor teachers will make our educational system stronger. As long as every teacher and student is considered as a number instead of a person, then our educational system will decline. This is true regardless of the pay and benefits they receive.
I need to add that teachers are often ordered to give up their planning periods to cover an absent teacher’s classes. This deprives the teacher of time that is usually devoted to grading papers, calling parents, and preparing lesson plans.
These protests are spreading, as people are starting to rise up in other cities as well. If you want to help, see if there is an event in your area. http://action.seiu.org/page/s/solidarityaction
Yes they will spread across the nation in support of the middle class! While we are quite aware that walker has not interest in education re: his own lack, it will be very anger provoking when class size goes to 60 pupils and the people come out to protest! Now, he did not care when the trash was in the streets and the infrastructure was crumbling in Milwaukee and it was not reported by the local press but –He and the kock bros stepped in it in Madison…5 generations of union members in that state..The State that brought collective bargaining , weekends, and vacations, and the 40 hr work week! This lying sack and his corporate owners are going to take it on the head! He and They brought in the baggers to counter–How is that 1500 number working for them!
Jam his communications:
Mean while flood his fax: 1-608-267.8983
phone:1.608.266.1212
email: wisgov@mail.state.wi.us
with the rank-and-file conservatives need to understand is, when they are on the job and they have health insurance, it’s because of a union someplace the set the model making their company have to have health insurance.
With no collective bargaining all of the little privileges that everyone has will deteriorate. And unfortunately it doesn’t matter if you are a conservative or a Democrat you will lose just the same. If there is no collective bargaining and in your city five of eight factories decide to drop healthcare, healthcare is going to drop all through your city. Once people see that they don’t have to have it it will be gone.
Everyone loses in the situation except for the man at the top. And if you think it’s important to keep them there go ahead and sacrifice your family
Fox news, oct 2010 – $250k = middle class
Fox news, feb 2011 – $50k = middle class
where did that two hundred thousand dollars go, Fox news?
It looks as though the unions will loose in this war currently being started in Wisconsin. You union people will have to actually work for a living and earn your money.
And when the union people lose their benifits, you will as well.
But you did get your silly talking point in for the day
And so did you. Unions must go now
I had a point, he and you have nothing
Thank God those 12% Mafia controlled unions provide for all of us! Where would be without them! Praise Allah!
In 2010, the union membership rate—the percent of wage and salary workers who were members of a
union—was 11.9 percent, down from 12.3 percent a year earlier, the U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics
reported today.
and when did you decide that you hated the working person? You obviously enjoy the fact that Joe the plumber makes $15 an hour less and obviously you want him to make even less than that.
So – what your trying to say is the Unions “Are not draining the funds?” Then why is it common practice for union members to spike their final year with overtime hours just to artificially inflate their pension payout? So of course it’s the big bad companies, GOP, Bush, rich people and not the little man “maybe” abusing the system a little bit….
why don’t you ask yourself how union members who work for the state, are told what to do by their supervisors are spiking their final year with overtime hours? The only way that happens is by supervisory approval. Secondly your pension payout is not determined by your last year of work.
You are listening to the wrong propagandists
It’s a rolling 3 year in some states – and a single year in others. I’m not saying it starts and ends with Wisconsin – and you are. Plenty of states have final year determines your whole pension plan.
You are implying the supervisor has the choice of picking “who” when in fact most Unions implement seniority gets to PICK if they want to work OT, so if they need something done, they offer OT and of course senior person in final year is going to take it. Or are you trying to tell me that a supervisor can single out a person and tell them to work OT ? I’m pretty certain every union i’ve ever known runs 100% on seniority.
you stated that the workers are adding on lots of extra overtime. That can only happen through supervisory approval. That’s all I said.
unions most certainly run on seniority. And if they wanted to add on overtime in the last year to the highest seniority than that’s fine that’s the way goes. big deal. They are not draining funds anymore than anyone else. They are working hours allotted to them by their supervision. Are you saying that they don’t deserve to do that? After working long enough to get retirement for the state or anyone else you are saying they don’t deserve it? Why
And I never said it started or ended with Wisconsin. I never mentioned the stated all. You did
But it DOES cost more if someone in their “pension level qualifying years” works more OT. In fact, the cost is magnified rather than a one time fee. It would be way cheaper to make it a one time fee and not let OT dictate the pension level. Would it not? So, instead of paying for that OT one time, the taxpayers get to pay for that OT worked for the lifetime of the pension being drawn on….brilliant.
And you should be thanking the supervision for approving that OT.
It’s more “convenient” for your argument to blame the supervisor who needs the work done.
What about the worker who sandbags so it requires OT just to get the job done?
OT should not affect the pension payout amount. PERIOD. Then it doesn’t matter supervisor, or employee – seniority already dictates the most senior can take a “pass” on the OT work.
Personally you are talking Bull. The employee with seniority probably worked the most OT to start with.
There are workers on any job that sandbag. I am beginning to understand all you have is talking points. Stuff the sandbag crap. Thank the supervisor who wasnt doing his job because OT was necessary. And it it was necesary then so what? More than likely entire departments worked, not just the guy with seniority. You dont have an arguement
I just read an article in Milwaukee County First: Walker’s Perfect Storm. In this article, it talks about how he has already laid off people, and also how he got a salary increase at a time when he wants to end collective bargaining power for the unions he says should be willing to sacrifice. It underscores his hypocrisy in addition to his overreaching. After learning that about him, it makes even LESS sense for any worker in Wisconsin to support him in this battle.
He also gave a crony a raise. Walker is a walking hypocrite
Shiva, you want hypocrisy – how about John Kerry dodging his own states taxing of his shiny new “yacht”.
Isn’t democracy about talking points? Or are we moving straight into socialism where we are all the same and can’t differ in opinions. Odds on money that the local electrical unions head boss makes more money than the governor?
You are absolutely hilarious. Remember when you wannabes defended people making money? Whats it to you? And John Kerry? LOL!
Shiva ! Glad you find good humor in my posts. I simply like to point out the hypocrisy in marching out those dirty rich conservatives to get lynch mobbed and yet you have your own fair share of liberals who fit the same bill. Wouldn’t Kerry dodging state taxes also result in his state being under funded and thusly a chance to lose or affect jobs of hard working union members in his own state? Funny how all of it so quickly becomes inter-connected….
I guess it is not Popsicle that the supervisor knows how to abuse the system. No that can’t be it
Your argument implies Unions have NO FLAWS. Versus an enlightened perception that unions have become fundamentally flawed.
Fundamental flaws with unions
1) Pay in for less time than you draw benefits
* start working at age 18 or even 22 and work 30 years (often times 29 yrs and a day) and you are vested. So, at age 48 or 52 you can retire and draw benefits. Heck, go get a second career.)
2) 100% seniority based. Merit and skill means nothing…
3) Pay based on education level, not job performed
4) Service / skill cost inflation. Tradeshows are the worst. I have paid a union electrician $200 for 5min. of time to “connect” an extension cord. And a random “any union” guy $200 to move a 10# box 20 feet. Yep – that is $1 per pound, per foot moved. Everyone should buy FedEx and UPS stock if they ever get to charge the same rates as the “union”. And they would not let me touch the box because it’s “their skilled work”. Really…moving a box is skilled? Since when?
5) Conflict of interest. Union bosses bankrupt a union pension fund to get politicians elected to turn around and shake the can for a politician bailout. (fundamental conflict of interest)
I could continue – but I’m pretty sure your mob bosses (whoops) I mean union bosses don’t want you to question which line to march down.
Hi Drew
You sound pretty mad about unions. Yes, they have flaws and always will. But they also do a lot of good. Before unions, workers were treated like serfs in the middle ages. Unions gave them power and put them on an equal footing. American has prospered with unions and can continue to do so. Right now the wage gap in America is huge and growing everyday. We are in danger of reverting to the days of sweat shops. The middle class that so many of us grew up in and want to see continue to thrive, is disappearing. Given the wealth possessed by the richest 10%, I don’t think unions are asking for too much. What is wrong with paying the people who clock in and do the work?
I just think it needs to be pointed out that unions also have an ugly side. You can’t just say RED is BAD and BLUE is GOOD, BLUE is for the people and RED is for the big bad corporations. We as a country are living beyond our means. That means ALL of us.
When JFK said ask not what your country can do for you, but what you can do for your country. He was talking to all of us. He wasn’t saying we should all line up waiting for:
-FREE HEALTHCARE
-FREE LIFETIME PENSION BENEFITS
a) Want to do an over under wager on the electrical union’s head boss making more money than the governor?
b) Want to calculate out the cost of providing the “new” health care benefits given to us by our current administration? FREE health care was never guaranteed benefit of being in a union.
c) I have seen first hand physical threats from union workers to non-union workers. SAD.
We unfortunately need to all step back and say – maybe all of us need to do with LESS. Spend less, drive less, eat less and get our over weight problem back in line. Work more on being better people – read more, laugh more, spend more time with our children. I’m tired of people that are waiting around for a handout. And yes, when I get charged $200 for 5 min. of someone’s time – it’s hard to think that just MAYBE they have done too good of a job of locking in their pay scale at an unsustainable rate.
I’m a small business owner – I create jobs AND I clock in and do the work AND I get taxed at a higher rate than I ever have before – to the point it almost makes it not worth being a small business owner and not worth taking the risk to create jobs for other people.
The problem is that you weren’t bringing this up when the Bush was in office. Suddenly, when Obama is in the office, it’s 24-7 “those tax-n-spend Democrats”. Guess what? You were saying this when Clinton was in office. So I guess you are under some illusion that Bush spent less? I guess you do your research on the Fox News channel?
Umesh,
No – i get my facts from all different sources. Our current admin spent more deficit spending in the first year than all 4 years of deficit spending bush did. Yep -in one year. That’s impressive. I was upset with bush for spending too much. So, guess what – when you spend MORE in 1 year than in 4 – i’m even more upset. Simple math….Year 2, more than all 4 of bush….2 years current admin = 12 years of bush – right, we only had 8….
where are you getting those stats, they are patently untrue, I’ve looked at the figures
and its absolutely false. Please cite a reputable source and the specific numbers?
Sure lets all do with less, I voluteer the top 10% of the wealthiest people in america do with 70% less,
like the pre Regan tax levels. Somehow people still managed to be really rich, but they also shared thier
wealth with the country that made it possible. How about that?? Once they do that for a few years, then
we’ll see if the doing with less needs to trickle down.
How about corporations deal with less tax shelters, and off shore out sourcing?
How about we get those people to do with less, before we ask the people who are barely scraping by to do
with less.
Drew forgets that when democrats mention wages the wannabes defend with their last breath the right of people to make as much money as they can. TGons of people go for 2nd careers, but its wrong for a union person to work 30 years and do it? Sorry drew, thats a whine.
Merit and skill? You are stacking all union members into one basket that you dont seem to know anything about. Many union members make more than others base don how many jobs they do.
# 3 is just hilarious. Generally speaking, the more edicated the better the job you do.
#4 you probably got from a wannabe talking points email.
#5 There are crooked people inions, and there are crooked people in coporations. Enron comes to mind, Global village. Im sorry, you just dont have any arguments that dont apply to people in any job, Union or non union.
Go ahead and cry about John Kerry. Im sure you dont cry over Tom Delay or Duke Cunningham.
Hi Shiva,
Actually the opposite.
I’m and idealist. I expect more of people. Both conservative and liberal. I’m upset when I see the in-equity on both sides. Who am I to cheer for? Unions have served a good purpose at times*. I’m not trying to say unions never had a purpose.
But when our government is spending $4 billion per day on interest alone – we have a problem.
When unions have unfunded pensions to the tune of $500 billion dollars (California) We have a problem.
This isn’t a sudden “oh my moment” it’s been building for 20 years. And nobody has been paying attention to it.
It’s not isolated to Wisconsin, it’s not isolated to California or Illinois – it’s wide spread across our entire country. The means and methods by which to solve the problem? It varies greatly – Take Minnesota – their governor is raising taxes on the rich (I’m sure you would prefer that) and it will get to a silly point of 13.95% state income tax on the rich. The sad fact is it will likely result in the total revenue for Minnesota to go DOWN. Why? Who in their right mind is going to sit around and pay 14% state income tax? Rich people will just move. DUH. So, how do we solve our un-funded problem? We still have pension funds that are bankrupt. We can go on “pretending” they are all fine and in good standing – but someone steps in is willing to point out it’s not working and everyone gets mad at him. Yeah, so he has his flaws too – and I wish he hadn’t given money away to some corporations etc. But really, everyone is really mad because he’s pointing out this whole SCAM to date is nothing more than a PONZI scheme. That’s right – UNION PENSIONS are a PONZI scheme. The numbers don’t work. So, hate Walker for it – hate me for it – but the deals the unions negotiated are UNSUSTAINABLE. No amount of putting our heads in the sand fixes what is already broken – so how do we fix it ?
Wrong. The benefits that unions have are negotiated based on what companys or states can afford.
Guess what, until Reagan came along the federal income tax on the wealthy was 70%. And they thrived.
If yuou were a realist, why bring up Kerry? Sorry, not buying that one either.
The government spends trillions on interest on loans to run wars too. Much bigger problem
8% of our workforce is in Unions. I would think you would have bigger fish to fry.
Rich people dont move because of taxes, they are working at jobs that give them enough money to pay that 14%. Revenues go down because idiots like the guy in Wisconsin just blew a surplus givjng corporations a big tax break. And he expects the working people to make up for it.
There are corrupt unions, they are very good unions. There are corrupt companys who make their people go for 3-4 years without raises while profits go up. Ying yang. Last word on the subject
Last word eh?
Unions demands have nothing to do with what can be afforded. Especially in the case of public unions. It has to do with what they demand. If they were “affordable” then why are all the public pension funds bankrupt?
Reagan actually paid down our countries debt – not expanded it. More rich would sign up for that plan if the goal was to pay down debt – not run up a bigger bill. Which is how higher taxes and profitability co-existed with Reagan.
I said I was an idealist, not a realist. Kerry falls into the elite rich – not the working class rich. Passive income versus work your tail off income. There is a big, big difference and the working rich get taxed much higher than the silver spoon rich. Happy to give you a lesson on that if you need one.
IMPOSSIBLE. The $4 billion per day is on our TOTAL debt. That includes all wars. FACTS from 2007:
* $586.1 billion (+7.0%) – Social Security
* $548.8 billion (+9.0%) – Defense[2]
* $394.5 billion (+12.4%) – Medicare
* $294.0 billion (+2.0%) – Unemployment and welfare
* $276.4 billion (+2.9%) – Medicaid and other health related
* $243.7 billion (+13.4%) – Interest on debt
* $89.9 billion (+1.3%) – Education and training
* $76.9 billion (+8.1%) – Transportation
* $72.6 billion (+5.8%) – Veterans’ benefits
* $43.5 billion (+9.2%) – Administration of justice
* $33.1 billion (+5.7%) – Natural resources and environment
* $32.5 billion (+15.4%) – Foreign affairs
* $27.0 billion (+3.7%) – Agriculture
* $26.8 billion (+28.7%) – Community and regional development
* $25.0 billion (+4.0%) – Science and technology
* $20.5 billion (+0.8%) – Energy
* $20.1 billion (+11.4%) – General government
We will now be at 6x the amount of interest we spent only 4 years ago. We are on target for 1.4 Trillion in interest payments this year. YEAH US !
Reagan increased the debt by $1.9 Trillion
Nice try
Well being much older than any of you I will tell you this! People are not all the same and should not be treated the same an the Unions advocate! Interchangeable, just replace one zombie with another! Unions have almost destroyed this nation as they have Europe! The productivity of a Union worker is far, far less that of a real worker! I do not think this once great nation can survive the onslaught of the government regulations and the Union greed! Unions are no different than the Mafia demanding that business buy protection from them! In one case one has a collection of serfs to extort and in the other a collection of mom & pop business to extort! Further, the Mafia bosses and the Union bosses are buddies if not the same people!
Join a Union and support your local crime syndicate!
Unions are horrible and most the big ones are corrupt and should have no sway in my daily life, yet they do. I use to work under the grocery union which was a nightmare within itself. Unions were started for a good reason but nowadays they are no good and need to go. Most of my peers here in Southern California feel the same. When someone is feircly fighting for the union on the new or here on blogs, they usually work for the union or are in some way connected to the Union. Every regular Joe isn’t naive and can see the obvious here. We just don’t have deep enough pockets to show our presence everywhere, so the majority seems for the unions when that is an outright falsehood.
I swiped this from another poster on HuffPo but when you commented about teachers = babysitters — I had to share!
“Teachers’ hefty salaries are driving up taxes, and they only work 9 or10
months a year! It’s time we put things in perspective and pay them for what
they do – babysit!
Let’s give them $3.00 an hour and only the hours they worked; not any of
that silly planning time, or any time they spend before or after school.
That would be $19.50 a day (7:45 to 3:00 PM with 45 min. off for lunch and
plan– that equals 6 1/2 hours).
Each parent should pay $19.50 a day for these teachers to baby-sit their
children. Now how many students do they teach in a day…maybe 30? So
that’s $19.50 x 30 = $585.00 a day.
However, remember they only work 180 days a year!!! I am not going to pay
them for any vacations.
That’s $585 X 180= $105,300 per year.
What about special
education teachers and the ones with Master’s degrees? Well, we could pay
them minimum wage ($7.75), and just to be fair, round it off to $8.00 an
hr That would be $8 X 6 1/2 hours X 30 children X 180 days = $280,800 per
year.
Wait a minute — there’s
something wrong here!
The average teacher’s salary
(nation wide) is $50,000. $50,000/180 days
= $277.77/per day/30
students=$9.25/6.5 hours = $1.42 per hour per student–a very inexpensive
baby-sitter and they even EDUCATE your kids!) ”
Please forward to all of your teacher friends!
Maybe the teachers union needs to talk to the electrical union and box moving union….maybe those other fine, kind unions will share their ill gotten gains.
- I have paid $200 to have a union electrician connect an extension cord at a tradeshow
- I have paid $200 to have a union member carry a 10# box 20′, yes, that’s $1 per pound, per foot carried. If UPS and FedEx ever get to charge the same rates, we all need to buy stock in those evil companies
Because carrying boxes is supposedly skilled labor….right. I missed the memo.
It’s called pay rate inflation. Inflating the rate you get paid to perform a basic skill. Thank you unions. Muchos Gracious.
Why on earth would you pay someone $200 to “connect an extension cord at a tradeshow”? Did you ask him to do something without actually asking what the price was? Do you actually know all he did was “connect an extension cord?” There’s a helluva lot more to that story than just your union bashing.
Or look at it this way. You paid him $10 to plug in the cord and $190 to know which cord to plug in and where to plug it.
Well, looks like the taxpayers of Wisconsin are doing a little collective bargaining of their own, and about time they did.
I find this so funny that some of you americans are actually defending this Dbag governor. I mean really he going destroy any chance people have to make a fair wage. I live in Canada and though I don’t work a union construction job I now that all the benefits and high wage are thanks to them. And I will laugh at all you republicans when you are all getting $6.00/hour and no benefits because all the unions have been broken in America and I will also pity the rest of you that can actually see where this is going
You my Canadian friend has hit it right on the head. But you have to look at it from another angle. The Americans that are for the breaking of the unions are those that have made it and dont need a union. That too is an American phenominum. For some, whhen they are struggling they expect , and for the most part, and get all the help they need. But once they have arrived they get ” amnesia ” and start spouting off such rhetoric as ” let them pull themselves up by their own boot straps “. What American made it to the top without help from some one ??? There are those that say there is this wall between church and state in the constitution. That just is`nt so. But, there should be a wall betwen business and state !!! Lobbyists should all be jailed. Businesses should`nt be able to donate to politicians. Why does a business donate to a politician ??? Cause they`re nice people ??? Give me a break !!!
breaking the union is insurance for the rich. The odds of you making it to the top just got rare unless you are having sex with your supervisor
After watching the antics of these so called teachers of children in Madison, WI I am amazed why anyone would want these people influencing their children! Their behavior is Obamaminable just like their leaders! Home schooling and Private Schools are the only answer here! Then the democrats retreat to the most corrupt state and city in the nation! I guess it all fits somehow!
lol. I see you like to make up new words. One thing about you guys, when you hate you really hate !!! Congrats !! You must be proud of yourself. And I bet you have much more to share with us all, I mean after all, you had a long rest, from 2000 – 2008.
Don’t assume things you know nothing about!
You should probably go look at stats for home/private schools ROG! You’d rather have a half-wit mom with a high school education and a bible teach your child? Go ahead. I will stick with properly trained professionals with Master’s Degrees in education plus a subject they teach. That mom or private school teacher is not held to the same high standards as a union teacher. I know because I have to remediate failures from home and private schools 10 months out of the year. So yeah, take you children to the christian mom or do it yourself. Just make sure to follow you state’s curriculum so when someone like me has to fix your failure of a child, I’ll know exactly what you forgot to teach. And when I do have to fix your screw-ups, leave your bible at home because it’s not in any state’s curriculum…just in your head.
For all of their talk about meritocracy, what they really want is a dumbed down electorate catering to the Koch brothers and too dumb to know any better. Jesus would not have supported their cause.
You apparently have no information of just how smart and educated children got in little one room school houses in Wisconsin in early 1900′s! It is like Jerry Jones thinks he can get a world class team with a $1,000,000,000 stadium! But Wisconsin did with the big heart of the Packers!
Dedication works, money doesn’t!
there were good and bad teachers’ in single room schools. My first school for my first five grades was a single room school. Some of the teachers are better at teaching fifth graders than they were first-graders and some the opposite. You can’t make this silly assumption that all single room school teachers were superior to today’s teachers. Dedication works two ways. Dedication to your job which I believe teachers have while they are making a living teaching. Teaching is just like any other job. You need wages and the other benefits to get by on. Teachers do not get fed by dedication as much as you would like to think it’s so. Teachers do not pay off their student loans with jobs that pay them nothing. You could never have raised your children if you have any if your boss took your wages down each year.
Dedication also comes from the student’s parents been involved in their education. Back in a single room school era when you went home your parents helped you with your homework if you needed it. How many do today?
you can leave your little dedication issue now. Teachers are dedicated but they also have to feed their families
Those acting out in Madison are not dedicated! Neither are the cowards hiding out in the corrupt state of Illinois!
You jump to way to many conclusions from my remarks! Try to discuss thing you know something about first hand!
You already tried the dedicated routine. And it was a failure. Move on
hahah – dont you know the Packers are the only non-profit, publicly owned team in the NFL?
Packers profits are reinvested in Wisconsin communities through the Packers charitable foundation.
and lets not forget the players… the ones who actually WIN the games… are UNIONized.
You’re right… dedication… something only HUMAN BEINGS are capable of does work.
Money – the tool of CORPORATIONS does not.
You Loose.
Go find another talking point to copy/paste.
There’s not money in the WI state budget. Pure & simple. It’s either fire a ton of teachers or give them all small benefits cuts. The state of Wisconsin doesn’t have the money to keep up the same benefits.
What’s not fair is raising my taxes to maintain the extraordinary benefits, or borrowing more money to pay for lavish benefits. In order to make sure this can be passed down to the local government level, the collective bargaining for benefits has to go. They can still collectively bargain for wages, however.
This is a tough, painful choice.
LeberMac, the teacher’s union made every concession that Walker asked for. All of them, and are willing to make more. Careful you don’t let your kool-aide-soaked judgment get the better of the facts. Eliminating collective bargaining will not bring in one penny any more than giving tax cuts to corporations like Koch Industries will. Walker came in with a surplus and promptly gave it away. The teachers still gave concessions. Just what is enough for you people? How much kool-aid do you drink to fall for the lies Walker is promoting? Do some research, get off the juice, and then we can talk.
I wanna know why the only ones ever making tough and painful choices are the little guys.
It sounds like every other invasive thing they do…
this is gonna hurt, but its for your own good
this is gonna hurt me more than it hurts you
…
I’m tired of these stupid authoritarian “adult conversations” where MONEY an CORPORATIONS are the adults and PEOPLE are the children.
fuck you.
What do ceo’s have todo with the public workers of Wisconsin???
“…union workers are held to a higher standard of performance because of standards set by the unions and not the private sector…”
really??
GreenDoc – Yes, really. I worked construction in private sector and union shop. Union had standards, private sector did not. Union shop had rules regarding how much weight a man should lift, private did not. Union fired people for a shirt not tucked in. Private had no standards. You smoke a cigarette while working? Fired. Private sector allowed smoking and drinking. Have a beer at lunch? Private allowed it, Union smelled alcohol, you were fired and kicked out of union. You obviously never worked in a union job. So yeah, really.
Well one thing is good about all this. The nation can see clearly that fox news is a lying organization that has nothing to do with news !!!
From my experience, every news report I have read which I was either involved in or had first hand knowledge had some gross error in it! Now, since neither I nor my friends are news worthy I can report only ~50 data points. But 50 out of 50 what are the odds! Humans write stories and humans screw up! Fox is far better than the others at getting it half way right, but they are far to liberal for me to put much faith in either!
Teachers’ Unions have given themselves a bad name — for example, the New York City rubber rooms ( http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2009/08/31/090831fa_fact_brill ) , where some 600 teachers who can not be fired from their jobs go to while away the day doing nothing but sleep, read and stay bored — all on the taxpayer’s dime. While it may be true the the Teabaggers and their Fox news talking heads are unfairly bad-mouthing unions, there are certainly plenty of stories of unions gone amuck — and those extensive instances of truth are what build the foundations for the prevailing anti union sentiments.
And far more storys of successes. Wisconsin has union teachers and Wisconsin has the 2nd highest graduation rate in the US.
Teachers in Tennessee were not unionized and graduated kids who could not read their own name. Whats a fellow to do?
OK, put up the evidence for that statement, SHIVA!
I hope people read my entire post before blasting a comment
I personally detest unions – HOWEVER I don’t think my opinion should hold sway and that members of the unions should decide whether or not to belong to one. So Kudos to the protesters in Wisconsin.
But I do think unions are responsible for their own demise. I grew up near Pittsburgh, Steel City USA (ok, ONE of the steel cities). Unions that I saw were just as arrogant with their power as corporations. Once they achieved nice working hours, pay, benefits, etc…they felt the battle was one for the worker and set back on their laurels.
But there are so many more battles unions could have helped with…they could have evolved instead of becoming a dinosaur. FMLA, paternity leave, work life balance, education…. I don’t think any of these are part of union contracts. By FMLA, I’m referring to the fact unions could get paid family leave versus unpaid instead oc constantly asking for raises. There’s more to benefits in a job that the trifecta of good pay, good medical, good pension. There are plenty of causes for a union to spearhead even now.
Hopefully not only will this be a wake-up call for politicians who want to break the union….hopefully it will also be a wake up call to unions to become more relevant to this modern world.
If you don’t believe ANNA, search the net for pictures of DETROIT today! That’s what union have done! Then go look for pictures of Hiroshima Japan! I hope you all get the picture!
LOL, Unions decimated Detroit? Sorry, throw out some evidence instead of innuendo.
Are you dry behind the ears yet?
I am 60 and I come from Michigan. And I know better. But thanks for your evidence
So if you know better why don’t you reveal why today Detroit looks like Dresden in 1945?
Lemme know when you have some evidence that the unions brought Detroit down. then tell me why you dislike the union workers that bring up the wages of the non union workers. You know, the ones that would make pratically nothing without the union workers setting a standard.
Here is Wisconsin’s alternative:
Santiago Esparza / The Detroit News
Allen Park— The city’s finance director said today that Allen Park must lay off 25 to 30 employees by June to avoid a $600,000 deficit for the current fiscal year.
Tim McCurley said in an interview that the city sent layoff notices to everyone in the fire department to comply with a clause in the firefighters’ union contract requiring a 30-day notice. He said some or all of the firefighters could lose their jobs, and that the police department faces layoffs too.
From The Detroit News: http://detnews.com/article/20110223/METRO01/102230400/Allen-Park-official-says-layoffs-needed-to-plug-$600K-deficit#ixzz1Eq7HruhP
Rog.
the city had a 600,000 deficit. It planned on laying people off. You bit never said it was the fault of the union that there was a 600,000 deficit. However the members of the fire department and police were going to lose their jobs. I think you are done now.
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67% Of Voters Oppose Wisconsin Democrats Leaving State
By Ed Carson
Thu., Feb. 24, 2011 3:15 PM ET
Tags: Wisconsin – Unions – Democrats – Polls – Walker
67% of likely voters oppose Wisconsin Democrat senators’ tactic of leaving the state to prevent the legislature from voting on a bill to curb pay, perks and power of government-sector unions, according to a new national Rasmussen poll.
Just 25% of likely voters support the Democratic lawmakers’ move.
The Rasmussen poll found that 47% of likely voters support GOP Gov. Scott Walker on the legislation, the same as last week. 42% stand with the public employee unions vs. 38% last week.
With the Wisconsin assembly moving toward a vote on the legislation, it will be interesting to see how long all the 14 Democratic senators stay away.
At the very least, the lawmakers aren’t winning hearts and minds.
I will wait for a reliable poll thank you
to those of you that are down on unions, you should read up on the labor history of this country, compare it to the countries in the world that are now in chaos because of abject poverty among the citizen masses due to the greed and selfishness at the top(wealthiest) often due to the largess of our government (both parties) under the guise of helping the ‘people’. somehow the ‘trickledown’ never quite seems to reach the levels intended. mostly done for the corporations that want to move jobs to these places. if only they could break the unions in this country, our UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, they can bring the work back and dictate conditions that are not good for our citizens..do some research!!!!! many of the places our jobs went to , are now very unstable and and multi-national corp. would love to move their operations here, but not at the expense of paying living wages, hence the drive by the ‘exaulted ones’ to destroy the status quo……. enough said.
there is truly something wrong with the people who think they give corporations big tax breaks and they will start hiring people. That’s very wrong because many of them are sitting on billions of dollars right now and will not hire Americans who are unemployed. They have no intentions of extending operations here in the US at all. People like Scott Walker when he gave the corporations a big tax break( and the surplus that Wisconsin had), are doing nothing more than packing the corporations and the CEOs pockets. And he is doing it at the direction of the Koch brothers.
If they were going to hire as a result of their exorbitant tax breaks, they would have already done so. Contrary to the remarks of Anna above, there has never been a time when unions have been more relevant since the period before they came into being. We are dealing with a corporate class that is trying to smash unions since they know that unions are the last line of defense against their excesses that have already done so much damage to this country’s economy. Scott Walker is a blatant hypocrite who manufactured this whole “crisis” in order to create a way to pay for the tax cuts he gave to his cronies. What sane governor would give tax cuts during an economic crisis?
I read this morning that for him to actually break the union it would have to go all the way to the Supreme Court. Collective bargaining is a precedent for a union management relationship. Given that they have already said that they would give up the things he was asking them to give up he should’ve said fine let’s do it. But he is going out on a limb just like he did in Milwaukee and this is going to end up costing the state of Wisconsin a goodly amount of money. No sane person would give out huge tax cuts if he had an economic crisis. In this case the huge tax cuts created the economic crisis. And I wish deeply that president Obama had not given the wealthy the tax breaks he gave them because it simply feeds our monetary crisis
I also wish the president hadn’t, not only because they are deficit-increasing but also these folks want a mile for every inch they are given.