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First Amendment Establishes Christianity as State Religion?
By: Hrafnkell HaraldssonJul. 26th, 2011more from Hrafnkell Haraldsson
According to David Barton, Father of Lies, we’ve been getting it all wrong, folks. The First Amendment didn’t establish freedom of religion; it established Christianity as the official religion of the United States, even though it says “”Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion.” The AFA’s Bigot King Bryan Fischer, another apparent illiterate, agrees with him. Barton has some other odd ideas too, that pluralism somehow springs from non-pluralism and that only a Christian nation is tolerant and thus truly pluralistic.
If your brain just froze up, don’t sweat it; Barton’s apparently froze up at birth. If nobody can be this stupid they can be this dishonest. In the end, it doesn’t matter what is diagnosed as the cause of Barton’s malfunction. What matters is that he says this kind of crazy stuff and people nod their heads and agree; worse, potential presidents nod their heads and agree, like Michele Bachmann, Newt Gingrich, and Mike Huckabee. Armed fundamentalist Christian militias believe this stuff. You saw the other day in Norway what just one well-armed more-than-saved Christian can do.
This presents a serious problem for sane people in America.
What is stunning is that even reactionary old Pope Benedict XVI sees the fallacy here. Writing as Cardinal Ratzinger (and head of the office of the inquisition) Benedict authored a book called “Truth or Tolerance” in which he argued that Truth trumps tolerance. He understood that they are two mutually contradictory forces. Tolerance does not stem from Truth (we are talking capital-T Truth here) Barton seems to think that the two can coexist, indeed, that the latter is a necessary condition for the former. But history tells us otherwise.
A.H. Armstrong (a real scholar with a real education, unlike David Barton and Bryan Fischer) relates for us the legacy of Christian intolerance:
The choice of the way of intolerance by the authorities of Church and empire in the late fourth century has had some very serious and lasting consequences. The last vestiges of its practical effects, in the form of the imposition of at least petty and vexatious disabilities on forms of religion not approved by the local ecclesiastical establishment, lasted in some European countries well into my lifetime.
For the record, Armstrong was writing in 1984.
And theoretical approval of this sort of intolerance has often long outlasted the power to apply it in practice. After all, as late as 1945 many approved Roman Catholic theologians in England, and the Roman authorities, objected to a statement on religious freedom very close to Vatican II’s declaration on that subject. In general, I do not think that any Christian body has ever abandoned the power to persecute and repress while it actually had it. The acceptance of religious tolerance and freedom as good in themselves has normally been the belated, though sometimes sincere and whole-hearted, recognition and acceptance of a fait accompli. This long persistence of Theodosian intolerance in practice and its still longer persistence in theory has certainly been a cause, though not the only cause, of that unique phenomenon of our time, the decline not only of Christianity but all forms of religious belief and the growth of a totally irreligious and unspiritual materialism.[1]
If you want to know how tolerant Christianity has been when it has been in control, you need only look at the Theodosian Code, which remained in force through much of Christian history, long after the Roman Empire fell, as Thomas Jefferson recognized:
”By our own act of Assembly of 1705, c. 30, if a person brought up in the Christian religion denies the being of God, or the Trinity, or asserts there are more gods than one, or denies the Christian religion to be true, or the Scriptures to be of divine authority, he is punishable on the first offense by incapacity to hold any office or employment, ecclesiastical, civil, or military; on the second, by disability to sue, to take any gift or legacy, to be guardian, executor, or administrator, and by three years’ imprisonment without bail. A fathers right to the custody of his own children being founded in law on his right of guardianship, this being taken away, they may of course be severed from him, and put by the authority of the court, into more orthodox hands. This is a summary view of that religious slavery under which a people have been willing to remain, who have lavished their lives and fortunes for the establishment of civil freedom.”
To show you how important repression is to Christian authorities, how opposed to pluralism is Christianity historically, this ban on holding office or military command is direct from the Theodosian Code of twelve centuries earlier. That’s a long time to ban pluralism. And this sort of law is the context of the First Amendment, Jefferson’s own knowledge of history and experiences. It is the reason for Jefferson’s Virgina Act for Establishing Religious Freedom (1786) in which Jefferson wrote “our civil rights have no dependence on our religious opinions.”
We are to believe that if Christianity were made the state religion today it would be any different?
We already know it wouldn’t. We’ve seen demands for candidates to be Christians against the wording of the Constitution itself, Article VI Paragraph 3, which overturns the Theodosian Code, that “no religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office or public trust under the United States.” We have seen the experience of Cecil Bothwell, a North Carolina atheist denied public office; we have seen the price a candidate pays when it is believed she might be a witch; or when he’s a Muslim; we have seen what happens to employees if it is thought she might be a witch.
I’m sorry folks, but historically, embracing pluralism isn’t something Christianity is real good at. Just the opposite in fact.
I can speak from my own experience and knowledge here: ask any pagan about discrimination and second-class citizen status and you will find out what persecution is really like. The fundamentalists and their ignorant allies are the persecutors, not the victims. They are not the ones threatened with job loss, the loss of friends and families, and even the loss of a roof over their head if their religion is discovered.
If more convincing is needed, look at the long list of Christian laws against beliefs and activities it did not approve of. Jefferson recognized the consequences:
“Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined, imprisoned: yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity. What has been the effect of coercion? To make one half the world fools, and the other half hypocrites.”[2]
Armstrong concludes that “the triumph of Christianity carried in it, as perhaps all such triumphs do, the seeds of future defeat. The Church in the fourth century took what it wanted and has been paying for it, in one way or another, ever since.”[3] That Christianity has never learned this lesson can be proven through the simple act of opening your eyes to the world around you.
The Founding Fathers opened their eyes to the world around them; they were students of history if Barton is not; they knew this. That is why they purposely did not establish a state religion; that is why they wrote the First Amendment, to protect us from the evils of state-sponsored religion.
They cannot be blamed for not foreseeing somebody claiming the First Amendment says exactly the opposite of what it says, and one can only imagine their outrage at finding the forces they purposely sought to neuter turning the First Amendment on its head and using it as an argument for state sponsorship of religion.
Supporting Materials:
Please do read the following for a proper understanding of the points of view of Thomas Jefferson and James Madison
Thomas Jefferson. The Virginia Statues for Establishing Religious Freedom (1786)
James Madison. A Memorial and Remonstrance Against Religious Assessments (1785)
You will see that the establishment of Christianity as a state religion was the furthest thing from either man’s mind.
[1] A.H. Armstrong, “The Way and the Ways: Religious Tolerance and Intolerance in the Fourth Century A.D.” Vigiliae Christianae 38 (1984), 1-2. Emphasis added
[2] Thomas Jefferson, “Notes on Virginia, Query XVII, The Different Religions Received into the State” The Works of Thomas Jeffersion, Paul L. Ford, ed. (NY: G.P. Putnam’s Sons, 1904), Vol. IV: 296.
[3] Armstrong, (1984), 1-2.
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Pam
Jul. 26th, 2011 at 8:19 am
Please fix the link to Madison’s “A Memorial and Remonstrance Against Religious Assessments (1785)”
Hrafnkell Haraldsson
Jul. 26th, 2011 at 12:05 pm
Fixed and thank you for letting me know, Pam. Apologies for that.
Reynardine
Jul. 26th, 2011 at 8:27 am
Some of the bloodiest conflicts have been between and among different sects of Christianity. What kind of artful construction makes Barton and Fisher think that, even if the First Amendment established some kind of Chritianity, it established theirs?
robert chapman
Jul. 26th, 2011 at 12:19 pm
Some of the bloodiest conflicts have been between and among different sects of Christianity. Amen to that.
The hypocrisy of Christians shedding each other’s blood over doctirnal disputes was a major motivating factor in the colonial settlement of America and remains a major motivation for the maintenance of the high wall of seperation between church and state.
Brian
Jul. 26th, 2011 at 9:01 am
Barton is a shameless ideologue who is made even more dangerous by his pleasant and “Aw shucks” demeanor. How could such a nice guy be lying through his teeth?
Links to supporting documents at the bottom are not working.
Ingarose
Jul. 26th, 2011 at 11:09 am
Glenn Beck had a lot to do with bringing Barton to the forefront. Glenn’s sheep could see the pleasant Barton and nod their heads to everything he said.
Hrafnkell Haraldsson
Jul. 26th, 2011 at 12:06 pm
Aw shucks and uneducated seems to be the norm for the Republican base.
Link is fixed.
Shiva (Moderator)
Jul. 26th, 2011 at 9:53 am
it’s one thing to go to church on Sunday and learn about your religion. It’s quite another thing to live under a fundamentalist religious regime like David Barton wants us to.
The article indicates that no known religious regime has ever given up the privilege of being able to persecute or repress people. The problem with being under a religious regime, is that the people running it must ensure that everyone is acting according to the faith. That in and of itself creates a governmental system of fear and repression. This is not what the average everyday Christian going to church is taught and that is why there is such a difference between fundamentalism and normal religion. A fundamentalist religion needs to maintain the population in fear of both God and of itself. The flipside of that is the society that we have today which is free to go about its life without worrying about what religion they belong to or whether or not they belong to a religion.
In my opinion the Catholic Church and the Mormon church are the two churches are religions that are the closest to being fundamentalists, although the Catholic Church has mellowed somewhat over the ages. But then again you might consider why the Catholic and Mormon church are two of the largest landowners in the world. It’s because they take, not because you give.
However neither two churches should be compared to the David Barton style of fundamentalism which is very repressive. Consider what we have today and that your neighbor can be gay or an atheist, and you both live together with some expectation of harmony. That would never happen under the David Barton and Brian Fisher school of religion. Religious rule is never beneficial to the people under it.
robert chapman
Jul. 26th, 2011 at 12:16 pm
No known religion has ever given up the privilege of being able to persecute others.
I had a telephone conversation with my Lutheran pastor this morning regarding the attack in Oslo. He reassured me that we will make an entry in our newsletter that our denominational response to persecution is prayer.
We will not undertake the persecution of others, and if faced with persecution against us or against others, we will submit it to the proper legal authorities for lawful redress.
Besides prayer and lawful redress what other reponses to persecution are there?
How is that not a denomination voluntarily repudiating the “privilege” of persecution?
Shiva (Moderator)
Jul. 26th, 2011 at 12:29 pm
the Lutheran Church is not in a position of power, nor in America is any church in that position. However in ages past the Catholic Church in the Church of England have been in positions of power and did not give up their privilege of being able to persecute people until it was taken away from them. What is being referred to here is not basically any mainstream churches of today, but of the fundamentalist churches who seek power over individuals
but you are right that today’s church has little recourse other than prayer. It does have the responsibility of making sure that its people understand how wrong this is to do in the name of religion
Yucon
Jul. 26th, 2011 at 6:52 pm
This country was founded by many Christian religions. All to get away from percussion and to be forced to follow a state sponsored church. Of course not all came for the same reason, but the large majority. As you know early states did have in their constitutions state sponsored religion, Rhode Island is an example. There was no one religion picked out to be the only religion. See there is where you guys get it wrong. It is all inclusive, covers everyone and everything. Not just one specific.
As for the Declaration of Independence, it is just that, a Declaration of Independence not the Constitution which is our set of laws. Now if you look at the first set of amendments, they are based on the Ten Commandments. So they did use the Christian belief system, even if some of the founding fathers were not Christians. They knew the value.
As for my comment about the Muslims, it is their doctrine to convert all non-believers. Now you can bury your head in the sand over this but they will try to do this to all, Christians and non-Christians alike.
You take “fundamentalists” for fundamental very disingenuous.
Shiva (Moderator)
Jul. 26th, 2011 at 7:24 pm
The amendments do not follow the 10 commandments. Not even loosely. The commandments do not address freedom of religion or speech. Weapons are not in the commandments, trials and punishments are not in the commandments, possibly quartering of soldiers? Oops, nope. No search and seizure, no cruel and unusual punisments. The amendmentsa have nothing to do with the commandments
The country was not founded by religions. It was founded by people who may or may not have been xtians. Better yet, the people were probably sick of religion after burning the witches. Furthermore it was over 225 years between the time people came here to get away from religious persecution and the creation of the country in 1776.
Your comment about muslims was ridiculous.
Yucon
Jul. 26th, 2011 at 8:54 pm
Shiva,
Your right, The Muslim comparison to Christian fundamentalism isn’t fair. It is off topic. I’d like to continue this. May we? Later? I can relate it to our founding fathers and our constitution.
Are you game? Without the name calling?
crsytalwolfakacaligrl
Jul. 26th, 2011 at 11:46 am
Here is a article about a woman who is Wiccan and what happened to her when she asked the city council to say a Non-nonsectarian prayer. Yes a city council the prays before they get to business!
web.archive.org/web/20050...
These “Good” christians beheaded her bird, and killed some of her other pets. What a bunch of vile hypocrite!
robert chapman
Jul. 26th, 2011 at 12:09 pm
Dear Mr. Haraldssen:
I have a little difficulty with your assertions that tolerance is virtuous and lot of difficulty with your tone regarding Messrs. Barton, Fischer, et al.
To deal with the stronger objection first. Mr. Haraldssen, disagreeing with the standard position on an issue as problematic as constitutional law does not imply bigotry. Mr. Barton and others sharing his view presumably can read as well as you and I. Their interpretation of the First Amendment is reasonable for a country that has “In God We Trust” written on its coinage.
We might agree that Christianity is not the STATE religion, but it certainly was the predominant religion for most of American history and had a huge influence on Civic Deism, the religion SCOTUS named as the de facto state religion in a recent ruling regarding the Pledge of Allegiance most American School children recite every morning. That said, I am curious about your veneration of tolerance as a civic virtue.
Why would someone uphold tolerance as the greatest societal value? Not even Voltaire would have taken such a position. He began his famous call for mortal defense of free speech, “though I would fight your position to the death,” before concluding, “I will defend to the death your right to speak it.” I cannot see how that logically demands a position of tolerance.
Similarly, Americans must be prepared to tolerate the EXPRESSION of ideas, but are not obligated to accept their propagation or implementation.
Whether Mr. Barton is a bigot is not revealed by his remarks, as you show them. He may well have taken a nuanced and careful historical argument and butchered it, but that is not in itself proof of prejudice.
Mr. Barton’s motivation may well be a desire to see a nation of hard workng, god-fearing, generous people who mind their own business. There is no reason to impute evil intentions to his statement.
Mr. Barton may believe that the inspiration of the Holy Spirit rather than dialectical critiques by the vanguard of the people’s movement will most likely lead to the conditions described in the paragraph above. He is most certainly entitled to express those views along with whatever historical evidence he cares to submit.
I, of course, retain my right to challenge the validity of his historical research, his religious claims and his conclusions. In this case, they are easily refuted. In my view, it is better to simply and quietly refute the content without making ad hominem attacks on the speaker.
Thank you for your patience with me and for providing the forum for my remarks.
Respectfully your,
Robert Chapman
Brooktondale, NY
Reynardine
Jul. 26th, 2011 at 12:22 pm
Mr. Chapman, your tone is courteous, for which I thank you, but your constitutional construction is deeply flawed. If you are not a lawyer, then you need to understand that a slogan on a coin or a seal is not even persuasive, let alone stare decisis. If you are one, you are making an argument you know to be specious, and I urge you to cease and desist.
Hrafnkell
Jul. 26th, 2011 at 1:56 pm
Mr. Chapman, I destroyed Mr. Barton’s lies and then I treated Mr. Barton as he deserved. I first destroyed the argument, then the man. A ad hominem attack, you may remember, attacks the person, not the argument. Therefore, I am not guilty of an ad hominem attack.
You may also remember that “In God We Trust” did not become the motto of the U.S.A. until nearly 200 years after the Constitution was written – the original, “E Pluribus Unum” worked just fine – “Out of Many, One”
So no, later accretions of Christian dogma to our secular Constitution does not impress me at all, Mr. Chapman, not any more than Mr. Barton, not any more than your defense of him.
Rmuse
Jul. 26th, 2011 at 1:02 pm
Excellent article Hraf! It never ceases to amaze me that just because a Christian extremist wraps their assertions in a flag and clutches their bible to their heart, they can lie about and distort history. It is too bad they don’t assign as much time and dedication to understanding factual history. But it is hard to admit to facts when they live their lives according to an ancient Jewish fairy tale.
Hrafnkell
Jul. 26th, 2011 at 1:53 pm
Thank you, Muse. I don’t know how they get establishing of religion from a clause that says no religion is to be established, but as you say, the flag and bible seem to do something to their brain functions.
Rmuse
Jul. 26th, 2011 at 1:32 pm
Mr. Chapman: your assertion that Barton’s 1st Amendment interpretation is reasonable disqualifies all of your arguments as ignorant sophistry. If your contention that coinage with a slogan meant to oppose the Soviet Union’s anti- god threat characterizes the Founder’s original intent, it may be time to re-read the 1st Amendment.
Mr. Haraldsson is right to assail Barton et al for the fallacious content of their teachings, and to call a lying charlatan a lying charlatan. Liars are inherently bad, and when they mislead dysfunctional fundamentalists, they must be criticized with extreme prejudice. Mr. Haraldsson is too kind and respectful to really attack men who can only be described as filthy lying pigs. If this was not a public forum, I would accurately describe these vile liars in real terminology. It is acutely embarrassing that even one American citizen would agree with the lying Christian fundamentalists, but that is what happens when people follow scam artists with religious fervor, and why Christian fanatics are a scourge on America, and as we have seen in Norway, the entire world. They are worse than the Taliban.
Yucon
Jul. 26th, 2011 at 6:20 pm
Yes, your right, Christian fundamentalist are worst than the Taliban just ask those ladies who were stoned to death. Oh that’s right you can’t. Are you that scared of religion and the thought of a deity? If so why? Can you prove a GOD doesn’t exists? Are you a Fatalist?
Sarah Jones
Jul. 26th, 2011 at 6:54 pm
So, are you suggesting that women do not die as a result of Christian fundamentalism or simply that you are unaware of it?
Yucon
Jul. 26th, 2011 at 6:57 pm
Name me one honor killing?
Reynardine
Jul. 26th, 2011 at 7:00 pm
Well, Yucon, Giles Corey was pressed to death with quite a few stones, Cong. Daniel Webster thinks this sort of thing should be reinstated, Dr. Tiller was killed in his own church by more modern means, the Atlanta bomber was a “Christian”, and so is Anders Breivik. I could go on, but it’s late and I’m tired, so I’ll just tell you to shut your specious, shit-eating little mouth.
Yucon
Jul. 26th, 2011 at 7:31 pm
Lost the argument when name calling comes in. Thanks for your responds. Can’t call a Whack job main stream. For a Muslim this is what is call for and is main stream. You’re entitled to your opinion. Doesn’t change the fact that they will behead you, chop off your hands, stone woman, cut out your tongues for crimes against their religion. Does Christianity?
Shiva (Moderator)
Jul. 26th, 2011 at 7:39 pm
Trying to change the subject that christians dont kill with muslims doesnt work. Either face the subject or move on. Muslims have nothing to do with this article on christian fundamentalism. Please familiarize yourself with the subject
Reynardine
Jul. 26th, 2011 at 8:37 pm
I worked beside Muslim colleagues for quite a few years. They were intelligent, I could have reasoned discussions with them, and they could spell. Nor did I have to worry about them going around making up mean little lies. As for honor killings, they were quite common in Mediterranean Europe into the Seventies. If you think atrocities are the sole property of Islamic societies, you are deluded, and if you are making that up to be vicious, you have a shitty little mouth, just as I said.
Yucon
Jul. 26th, 2011 at 10:48 pm
Reynardine,
Since you have no idea of who I am or with whom I have work, a generalization and assumption that I have no interaction with any Muslims is quite naive. Plus my interaction in Europe and Asia has given me a different perspective too. Honor killing are still occurring, and are now starting in the US if you want to acknowledge this or not. It seems being called “A Liar” is common on this site, can you show me where I was Lying? I’m not making this up, just read the news. And Thanks again. I hold you in high regard too.
Yucon
Jul. 26th, 2011 at 3:46 pm
The USA was built on the Christian principles, like it or not. You can belittle and twist it and do all you like to do remove it from discussion in the public square. That is your mission, go for it, but if you really have any consistency in your mission to this same thing to Muslim too. Please!! Remove Christian, we are all Muslim, like that or not. And they will convert you, like that or not. They do behead those who don’t convert. This is coming to a neighborhood near you, like that or not too. You can believe me or choose not to. It is just a matter of time. Do you all think that are going to stop?? So Pick on Dave Barton historic views of our founding fathers. You choose to use A.H. Armstrong, who by the way was speaking about Europe which is where the USA left because of religious freedom, and we can all sit together on this bus and watch this country continue to decline. Thank You Very much.
Shiva (Moderator)
Jul. 26th, 2011 at 3:55 pm
which Christian principles was at built on? The pilgrims or the Puritans? They didn’t even celebrate Christmas. The creators of the Declaration of Independence were not necessarily all Christians. Can you point to exactly what principle of Christianity that the Declaration of Independence was built on?
Christianity happen to be by far the largest religion in early America. But that does not indicate that it was built on Christianity. the country was built on laws that we got from old England and Europe. The Americans did leave England because of religious freedom but that doesn’t mean that it is the same England or Europe now. And this has absolutely nothing to do with Muslims. If you remove Christianity we are not all Muslims, that is a most ridiculous statement I’ve ever heard. There are more Jews here than there are Muslims. This country will not decline or improve because of Christianity. It does so because of the people.
But basically more to the point you missed the point. This article is pointing to Christian fundamentalists, not the every day Christians probably like you. To the Christian fundamentalists you are not a Christian until you are born again in their fundamental religion. For David Barton to say that the First Amendment establishes Christianity is an absolute lie. If you are a Christian you should’ve seen that in a heartbeat
Yucon
Jul. 26th, 2011 at 7:00 pm
Sorry, my responds posted above under Shiva on July 26, 2011 at 12:29 pm please, I wait your responds.
Cathy
Jul. 26th, 2011 at 4:31 pm
I disagree with your assertion that we were built on Christian principles. I accept that the majority of Americans are of a Christian faith and have been for many years, but we are a country of immigrants who brought our religions with us. Or we abandoned the beliefs of our parents and sought our own path. We all are citizens of one country that promises the freedoms to worship(or not) however we see fit. When one group, under the umbrella of religion, chooses to impose beliefs on another group, they are guilty of restricting others religious freedom. And any radical point of view, whether fundamentalist, dominionist, muslim, christian,etc is a very dangerous thing to a free society. Our country was built by many to be one.
Yucon
Jul. 26th, 2011 at 7:16 pm
Cathy,
You wrote “When one group, under the umbrella of religion, chooses to impose beliefs on another group, they are guilty of restricting others religious freedom.”
What evidence do you have that one Christian religion tried to impose its belief on anther? Now if you want example of the opposite outside of the USA I can give you some.
Sarah Jones
Jul. 26th, 2011 at 7:20 pm
No, seriously, you can’t really be asking that. Are you for real? It’s like you have been in a cave while the Republicans have been trying to and succeeding in legislating their Christian so called morality on the rest of us (some of whom are real Christians and as such do not seek to IMPOSE but to compel through deed).
Yucon
Jul. 26th, 2011 at 7:39 pm
And I see it just the opposite, ya’ll are trying to impose your belief on the rest of the country. No one is telling you to do anything. It is you who want to remove any discussion of religion anywhere. So from that remake I take it you believe the morals of the country are just fine. Right?
Sarah Jones
Jul. 26th, 2011 at 8:11 pm
But Yucon, first of all, you don’t know who I am or what I believe, as you’ve proven in your statement. You obviously didn’t read my comment carefully.
Second of all, I realize that you FEEL persecuted, but that doesn’t make it a fact. While I gave you FACTS (legislation), you gave me feelings.
See the problem there? Now, there are no “facts” for your position, because people “like me” aren’t trying to get you to live by our beliefs because we do not think our beliefs should rule the world and we respect the wall of separation btwn religion and state. The fact that you do not respect that wall doesn’t make you a victim of my beliefs, but it does make you against the very foundations of this country. I suggest that if you want to rule using the bible-tution, you go to Somalia and start from the ground up with no government. Make your own little world, wage Holy wars, etc. I am certainly not going to fund your little wars with my tax money nor give our children to you as Jesus warriors.
Feelings of persecution that are not real are a sign of mental illness. Take that for what it’s worth.
Shiva (Moderator)
Jul. 26th, 2011 at 8:17 pm
Like many, Yukon does not understand that its not christianity being talked about, its christian fundamentalists.
Unless he is one of them
Yucon
Jul. 26th, 2011 at 8:28 pm
Sara,
In your statement you did not make any clear legislating reference. You stated “Republicans have been trying to and succeeding in legislating their Christian so called morality on the rest of us (some of whom are real Christians and as such do not seek to IMPOSE but to compel through deed)” But did not mention the legislation.
If you can, Please name them?
How can you Compel through deed?
As for the “Feeling thing” If you saw that in my responds, I’ll have to look it over a few times. No feelings involved. Personally, I could care less. I’m going to do what I always do, as everyone should. You do your thing, I’ll do mine. BUT, I’m not going to tell you what to do, or my neighbor or the guy/gal down the street. I don’t care. If they want to Praise Jesus, Go for it. If they want Budda, go for that too. If they don’t want anything, that’s fine with me too. Just don’t tell me what to or not to do. Period.
Sarah Jones
Jul. 26th, 2011 at 8:35 pm
You can’t be serious- you are unaware of the legislation? Well, try reading this: www.politicususa.com/en/t...
Yucon
Jul. 26th, 2011 at 11:09 pm
Sarah,
Thank you for that link. Now we are on the same page. This is now the forum, this is way off topic, but I would be glad to debate you item for item on that list. Just let me know how we can do that, and I will oblige. I will tell you first as this web site states “Real Liberal Politics” so I do know what I am going up against. For the record, I am not a Tea Partier.
Sarah Jones
Jul. 27th, 2011 at 12:12 am
Haha:-) It’s OK if you are a Tea Partier. Being a liberal, I believe in debate and I believe that my fellow American want what is best for this country (save for the ALEC allegiance with the modern day GOP, because the constitution never intended this country to be run FOR corporations). I have NO tolerance for talking points from Fox News or from people who copy and paste their “ideas” and use that for debate. If you have an idea you can present in your own words, and I have time, I’m more than happy to discuss it.
I am PRO people, but against those who give shelter to corporations. I don’t have time to “debate” the long list of legislation the GOP has introduced (that would take years). My point is that on that list, you will see many instances of legislating morality as interpreted by someone’s bastardized interpretation and cherry picking of the bible. That is not small government, nor is it constitutional. As a woman, I resent having my medical rights taken away and having a bunch of Republican men think they have a right to decide what is best for my health – they know more than my doctor or me? What next? Will we legislate sperm emissions since they could be, “should be” babies?
Keep the bible off the ballots and out of my doctor’s office. That clown in Georgia is criminalizing miscarriages. It’s obscene.
Yucon
Jul. 27th, 2011 at 3:57 pm
Sarah,
Thank you for your responds.
There is warmth in your words and I believe we could have a calm and productive debate. But as you stated it would take years and that isn’t possible.
As a conservative (more libertarian) I’m sure we see thing from both sides. Life sure would be boring if everyone was cookie cutter being the same and thought the same. But I to do not want government to intrude in my life and dictate what I’m supposed to eat, buy, drive and live. Government works best at the local level than a large central federal government. I’m a states’ rights type. This gives the people the ability to choose and have options. If everything is monolithic we have nowhere else to move too except out of the country. And that should not be an option.
It has been a real pleasure. You have been refreshing for a liberal blog. I wish more could have your civility.
Just for the record, I’m not part of the GOP, left them years ago, or should I say they left me. I’m independent.
I’m Christian, but have left many denominations because of their ridge and misinterpretation as I see it. I fall more in the Gnostic category. Just FYI.
Cheers
Goffaq Yussef
Jul. 28th, 2011 at 1:20 am
Democracy was invented by the Athenian Greeks 400 years before Christianity existed. Republicanism was honed by the Romans many centuries before Christianity existed. Jesus Christ is never mentioned even once in the Declaration of Independence or in the Constitution of the United States. And Jefferson was explicit in his wording in the Treaty of Tripoli that America was NOT a Christian country. To say that America was founded on Christian principles is completely dishonest, and Barton isn’t ignorant of these facts, either. But he purposely ignores them in order to spin his agenda. No matter how many times or how vocieferously he repeats them does not make his assertions true in any sense of the word. The man lives in a fantasy world of ideas that only exist while he breathes; the facts speak for themselves, and he just keeps trying to drown out the sound as he beats the mute drum of false self-righteousness. If you believe anything that Barton says you are a fool, plain and simple.