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Religious Right: God Will Kill Our Children Until We Turn Schools Into Churches
more from Hrafnkell Haraldsson
I was traveling when I heard about what had happened in Connecticut. I read about it on my cell phone. I have an 8-year-old boy about to start in his new school. My first thoughts were about him, and how to keep him safe. But the insanity didn’t end with the shooting and the deaths. The insanity went on and will go on and is not likely to end anytime soon.
The conservative reaction to the deadly shooting in a Connecticut elementary school has been less than underwhelming, either hiding from view or suggesting we give guns to teachers . The reaction of Christian conservatives, in particular, has been on an order of magnitude, worse.
We have rapist-friendly Mike Huckabee saying that God did it. Yes, when God is not killing birds he is killing our children. Why is God killing our children? Because we have taken prayer out of school. Huckabee told Fox News (which you have to admit is the perfect audience for this kind of crap), that the shooting happened because,
“we’ve systematically removed God from our schools,” and added, “Maybe we ought to let [God] in on the front end, and we wouldn’t have to call him to show up when it’s all said and done.”
What a great god. Honor him above all or he will kill your children.
And people worship this guy…why, exactly? I mean, c’mon, do any actual Christians think this way? I don’t know any.
And then there is our old “friend” Bryan Fischer, who basically reiterated what Mike Huckabee said. According to Fischer, God could have actually saved those innocent young children, but he didn’t. Why didn’t God save the children? Because, Fischer says, “God is not going to go where he is not wanted”
Watch the video courtesy of Right Wing Watch:
Where was God when all this went down? Here’s the bottom line: God is not going to go where he is not wanted… Since 1962…We have spent 50 years telling God to get lost; telling God, we do not want you in our schools. We don’t want to prayer to you in our schools, we don’t want to pray to you before football games, we don’t want to pray to you at graduation…we don’t want anybody referring to you. We don’t want your word read in our schools. In 1962 we kicked prayer out of the schools; in 1963 we kicked the word of god out of schools; in 1980 we kicked the 10 commandments out of schools. We’ve kicked God out of our public school system. And I think God would say to us, ‘Hey, I’ll be glad to protect your children but you’ve got to invite me back into your world first. I’m not going to go where I’m not wanted. I am a gentleman!’
Fischer is perpetuating a myth. Prayer was not taken out of our public schools. School sponsored prayer is another matter entirely.
1962′s Engle v. Vitale determined that it was unconstitutional for state officials to compose an official school prayer and require its recitation in public schools.
Conservatives then as now, including Fischer, look at this as a law banning school prayer. It is not. It was never that. Engle v. Vitale did not ban school prayer. Students were still free to pray individually or in groups. All it did was conform school prayer to the demands of the First Amendment. Public schools do not have the right to teach our children to be Christians.
The other event Fischer talks about was 1963′s Abington Township School District v. Schempp.
On June 17, 1963 Abington Township School District v. Schempp(consolidated with Murray v. Curlett), 374 U.S. 203 (1963) declared school-sponsored Bible reading in public schools in the United States to be unconstitutional.
Again, it did not ban school prayer or “kick god out of schools” as has been claimed by the Religious Right. As Charles C. Haynes of the First Amendment Center writes, the ruling “requires that teachers and administrators neither promote nor denigrate religion — a commitment to state neutrality that protects the religious freedom of students of all faiths and no faith.”
For Fischer, the ultimate solution is not the “Second Amendment” but the “First Amendment” and the free exercise of religion, as he calls it. In other words, Jews, Muslims, atheists, Heathens like me – our children should be forcibly exposed to Christian doctrine in our public schools. That’s what Fischer and the Religious Right call religious freedom – their freedom to force their religion down our throats.
That’s not what Thomas Jefferson and James Madison and the other Founding Fathers had in mind.
Talk show host Steve Deace took to Facebook immediately after the shooting and went on a rampage of his own, railing against what he calls the public schools’ “culture of death.” According to Deace, this is not a gun problem but a cultural/spiritual problem:
These people are sick, folks. They are not Christians. Real Christians don’t talk this way; they don’t think this way. I used to be one. I am related to others. I have had friends who are Christian. The people who are pretending to defend Christianity today from imaginary attack are not Christians, but aberrochristians – aberrant Christians.
They want to use fear of the divine, what the Pagan Romans called superstition (superstitio), to coerce you into turning our public schools into aberrochristian indoctrination centers. They’re not satisfied with tax-free churches and ministries and megachurches and Super-Pacs. They want our public schools too made available for their warped ideology of hate and oppression.
And then their god will stop killing our children. Make Bryan Fischer and his mentally ill, sociopathic compatriots, happy, and he will stop killing our children. That is an ideology we do not need, a worldview that is counterproductive and sustained not by fact or rationality, but by crassest superstition.
America needs to say no not only to our rampant and irrational gun culture as embodied by the NRA, but to the Religious Right as well. We are in need of a rational debate, and we will get neither from these right-wing ideologues. Let’s save our children, because these groups sure as hell have no interest in doing so.
You can sign a petition telling Fox News to take Mike Huckabee off the air unless he apologizes immediately at Faithful America:
Image from KRDO.com
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59 Responses to Religious Right: God Will Kill Our Children Until We Turn Schools Into Churches
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dave
Dec. 17th, 2012 at 11:52 am
They have the right to take their children into homeschooling and change them into monsters ignorant of the differing opinions in the world. They have the right to teach their kids things like science isn’t real. As a country we give them all types of rights that can be used to screw up their children for life. If they think that public schools screw up our kids for life why are me not allowed to have the same right as them?
harris stein
Dec. 17th, 2012 at 12:21 pm
The rabid religious right has just made things worse. It looks like they aren’t satisfied with burning heretics at the stake and impaling them on pikes to parade around town. Now they want to use the local and federal, secular law enforcement authorities to convert all infidels to Christianity.
Larry Dillon
Dec. 17th, 2012 at 12:26 pm
He’s not really.Says the same thing just different words and moves them around.
www.huffingtonpost.com/20...
Reynardine
Dec. 17th, 2012 at 12:28 pm
To paraphrase an NRA slogan: God doesn’t kill people. People kill people. I just hope *these* people don’t start doing more of it to prove their point.
AKinPA
Dec. 17th, 2012 at 12:49 pm
Somewhere over the weekend, I saw the perfect response to the NRA’s “Guns don’t kill people…”canned response. It was “Guns don’t die; innocent children die” or something like that.
Also saw that the Westboro “Church” is heading towards Newtown. They should take Huckabee and Fischer with them since all of them are on the same page.
Larry Dillon
Dec. 17th, 2012 at 12:35 pm
Huckabee is saying NO JESUS is why Kids were blown to Hell.Funny coming from the murderous slaughtering Church,of course the Jesus Nuts blame the 53% divorce rate on Homosexuals,yet we have only been allowed to marry in 9 states and DC and that’s only been in the last 8yrs.The sanctity of marriage was screwed long before that..Jesus Nuts are ignorant and take no responsibility for their own twisted fucked up “sins”.Not to “little” of Jesus,to many of his f’d-up followers seems more logical of a reason.
Eric Erickson says single parents are the reason.OK.Lets put all single parents in prison and the kids in the orphan homes.I sure sure that is a valid response.A whole bunch of deranged Jesus nuts will adopted them I’m sure….to hell if they will.Jesus nuts talk good shit but their action are derived from the pits of Shiloh.
Some jacked in the head NRA worshipers blame Violent video games and movies on the violence,well the whole world pretty much plays the same games we play and watches the same movies yet the rest of civilized Western Societies has 10′s of gun murders a year and America,the most “civilized”(what a fucking joke) had over 10,000 gun deaths in 2011 alone.Blaming video games and movie isn’t just a fail its scrapping the bottom of a desperate barrel for justifying the carnage
Larry Dillon
Dec. 17th, 2012 at 12:38 pm
Its bullets and guns bitches.That is how the kids died.They had bullets shot at them from two handguns and an assault rifle.Are the deluded to deluded to see that?Oh.they see it they just refuse to believe it.They had rather take the death of 20 kids and use it to push a theocracy and their TWISTED SICK Version of what they proclaim is Gods Will on the country,We ain’t buying it zealots.
They are obsessed with the 2nd Amendment.They twist what it says and explain it in the way that benefits their desires to have a reason and a method to bring forth bloody carnage.Kinda like they have a sick compulsion to shove their religion down our throats so they twist the “word of God” to justify their reasons and the methods for the hate and oppression they attempt to enforce.
They cling to the 2nd Amendment,cool beans.I cling hard fast to the Separation of Church and State.
Bullets and Guns killed the kids.Bullets and guns were responsible for the Mall shooting just last week.Bullets and guns were responsible for the Virginia Tech shooting.Bullets and guns were responsible for the Temple shootings.Bullets and guns were responsible for theater shooting.Bullets and guns were responsible for the “highway”shooters.Bullets and guns is what almost ended congresswoman’s Gabby Giffords life.
Bullets and guns,bullets and guns,bullets and guns
What killed the kids Tea-Nuts?Their reply”We didn’t force them to pray that morning before the Play-Doe was handed out so God allowed 20 kid to be slaughtered”
Ignorant,deluded Rebiblican Tea-Nuts.
1voice1vote
Dec. 17th, 2012 at 12:53 pm
“Ok, Guns don’t kill people, People kill people, well then they shouldn’t have guns.” –Tim
“Keeping God in schools would have prevented the recent shootings just as much as He prevented child molestations in churches.” (?)
Omnipotence – if I had it, I’d have saved those beautiful children and their teachers.
Johnee
Dec. 17th, 2012 at 12:58 pm
(Sigh). Here we go…another ride on the crazy train of the religious right/dominionist attempt at “religious freedom”.
See here’s how it works: If evangelical Christians don’t have government favoritism above all other religions, and don’t have their views promoted and mandated as school prayer and revisionist history, then they (evangelical Christians) are being oppressed. Got it? So basically all those other religions don’t count; it’s ONLY oppression if evangelical Christians aren’t allowed to OPPRESS others. Makes sense right?
Johnee
Dec. 17th, 2012 at 1:02 pm
Oh and God hates this so much that he will let innocent children be slaughtered even though he could have prevented it. Y’know…because he…um…hates it..so much. Yeah that works.
A Walkaway
Dec. 17th, 2012 at 1:04 pm
This just flat makes me sick.
First, I blame the dominionists and the fear-mongering for what happened (and I resent all the blame on gun owners – WE are NOT responsible and 99.999999% of us do not commit violence).
Their ideology has been connected to nearly every case of a school shooting (and don’t forget the UU church that was shot up) with the exception of situations like Columbine – and from what I’ve read the shooters had been bullied unmercifully and cruelly by the “Good Christian” kids in that school, so in a sense they’re to blame there as well.
Their “God” is a monster who has no sense of mercy or kindness towards “His” own creation. According to their theology, God created us the way we are, and then turned around and punished us for being human – which is how God created us. That’s about as sick as one can get – and that “God” I want nothing to do with.
As far as the subject of Gun Control and Gun Bans… remember the recent conversation about trying to control others? I see no difference between a conservative trying to ban abortions or contraceptives and the attempt to ban guns that people here are calling for. We should be above all of that – liberalism is about freedom of the individual unless it harms others, and just as contraceptives don’t harm others, ordinary gun owners also don’t harm others and the two cases ARE very similar.
I don’t want to return to the days when my people sometimes cowered in fear of the Klan and didn’t have the right to defend themselves (which was on the books until 1980). I don’t want to be left defenseless in the face of the monsters that live in this area. It really bothers me that people don’t think this one through… if you’re for freedom of the individual, why all freedoms except the right to defend oneself (and/or procure food for the table)?
(Oh, and if you think the police are going to protect us, well, don’t buy any bridges.)
Nessa
Dec. 17th, 2012 at 2:34 pm
The day has not come that I am embarassed to identify as a Christian for fear of being linked to the ideals of these people, but it looks like it’s possible that it may come with stuff like this. My relationship with God is so personal and so uniquely my own, that I wouldn’t want other people to tell me what I need to say to Him, so even if every child in the country was a Christian, I still would not support mandatory prayer in school. Our school had a Christian Club, many others do too, where the read the Bible together and pray together. Why is that not enough? Why do these other Christians feel like they need to force their Christian beliefs on all of us, Christians and non-Christians alike? We’re not all bad folks, honest.
djchefron
Dec. 17th, 2012 at 3:19 pm
As an atheist I try to live by one simple rule.I respect your to worship whoever you please while you recognized my right not to.Remember its not you as a Christian I mock its the grifters who prey on the gullible with visions of your godly rewards as long as you send me your hard earned dollars.
Wow
Dec. 19th, 2012 at 10:23 am
I respect this comment’s honesty and it saddens me at the same time. Our society is warped, at best and in the name of God people do and say some crazy stuff. As a believer, I feel like such a failure at representing Him. I for one don’t believe that prayer in schools is going to solve anything. I wish that we could teach authentic Godly principles that don’t indoctrinate, just encourage respect and love of others. I’m not going to hold my breath on that, but my hope is that some how, some way God will be better represented.
Sehb
Dec. 17th, 2012 at 3:24 pm
There is another big problem, me thinks, about “allowing” their temper tantrum throwing child-like god, who incidentally shows no responsibilities or morals at all (aside from how to treat ones slaves and what you should do with your property, as a man of course). If the Christian god, as written in the Bible (which we all know couldn’t possibly be wrong despite being proved so, and also historically altered by certain men– such as King James for starters), were to be put in a trial before a court in any civilized country in the world, he would hang on death row for the numerous atrocities he committed (infanticide, genocide, war crimes, torture, rape, murder on the millions, slavery, etc.). There are millions of humans in the world who, with omnipotence, would do more than the Christian god ever did without a second thought. Humans have just evolved beyond the concept of the Christian god, and it’s time to bury him in his tomb.
SinghX
Dec. 17th, 2012 at 5:04 pm
AMEN!!…er ah, I mean, you’re gonna go to
h-e-double-hockey-sticks for saying that…and so is Johnee, too…god reads every post you write here!
What’bout me?? Oh, I’m already going…I have my hairdresser appointments all up set with my favorite gay stylist; everyone knows “the gay” isn’t allowed, you know, up there…
And remember, “God is a gentleman” and doesn’t go places he’s not invited…
(I got nothin’ that hasn’t already been said…)
Johnee
Dec. 17th, 2012 at 5:50 pm
Lol What’s that line in that Billy Joel song?
“…..the sinners are much more fun…”
I guess the one thing that pisses me off most about these crazies is their duplicitous nature. Your average blue collar dominionist has no problem spouting their extreme ideology right to your face….but their leaders, depending on the venue, dress it up in this thinly veiled duplicitous bullshit terminology to make it sound more palatable to the general public.
“Religious freedom” “Teach the controversy” Blah, blah, blah.
Bullshit!!!
lm945
Dec. 17th, 2012 at 6:18 pm
“Turn your schools into churches, where my minions will be free to molest and rape children, or I will gun down the little kiddies where they stand.”
Nice diety you’ve got there, Huckster.
Pass.
Reynardine
Dec. 17th, 2012 at 9:18 pm
No, he has a deity, who is not nice. He needs a diety, which he’d find not nice.
edna
Dec. 17th, 2012 at 7:20 pm
when the father blew his spirit in too adam ,he became one with god, adam became gods temple.for god the father is with in us all. when the father sent the angles to earth to help the humans. all but one refuse.to bow down to the humans. he declare wars in the heavens, , when the father toss them out of his kingdom. they got toss too earth. satain became the god of this kingdom.he made us to bow down too him.god the father kingdom is with out sin, so this can not be the father kingdom, this kingdom has much sin.jesus came to warn us, he told us not to have no part of this kingdom. if the father created this kingdom for his only son. then why would jesus disobay the father,by telling us too have no part of it. what happen to honnor thy father.and how jesus work on the sabeth. jesus show disrespeck, for this kinGdom.for jesus said,,, you can not serve two gods…he amittes their are two gods.so when you pray ,,pray to the father the god with in ,the one who shares your soul.jesus said,, he came to free the souls from bondageI FOR ONE BELIEVE ITS THE FLEASH THATS HOLDING THE SOULS IN BONDAGE.AND WHEN WE DIE, I BELIEVE GOD THE SPIRIT CARRYS OUR SOUL WITH HIM ,,WHEN HIS SPIRIT LEAVES ALSO.SO WHEN YOU PRAY ,,PRAY TO THE ONE WITH IN , NOT THE ONE OF THIS WORLD.WHAT GOD GIVES HE GIVES FREE.
Shiva (Moderator)
Dec. 17th, 2012 at 7:41 pm
I can suggest that you use Firefox, as it shows your spelling mistakes
Dancertiffy
Dec. 17th, 2012 at 8:57 pm
Yes—that is how the story goes alright.
Dancertiffy
Dec. 17th, 2012 at 9:03 pm
Well hey,being a member of a major belief system that is in rapid decline is not easy. We should try to keep that in mind when talking about these Christians.
Wow
Dec. 19th, 2012 at 10:13 am
It is in rapid decline because people hate being held accountable to Biblical teaching. It’s not easy living in a society of ‘tolerant’ people who turn to intolerant hate mongers in the name of love and acceptance when authentic Christians take a stance that isn’t popular. It does boggle the mind. There is so much more to say about this, but I’m doing my best to keep my comments to a minimal unless more is invited. I’m always open to discussion even if we don’t agree.
Dancertiffy
Dec. 17th, 2012 at 8:16 pm
God created the entire universe but “he” is not going to where he is not wanted??
The stupid factor is running high there.
Elizabeth 44
Dec. 17th, 2012 at 8:50 pm
HH, you said it better than I would have. I would like to repeat one section: the students give up NONE of their rights to religious freedom when they come to school. If they want to say grace before lunch or read a religious book during free reading, they have every right to do so. They can’t interfere with instruction or learning. They can’t interfere with another student’s right to his/her religious freedom, including no religion. God has not been kicked out of the schools. The unconstitutional attempt to force one brand of Christianity on all of the students is what got kicked out of the schools.
labman57
Dec. 17th, 2012 at 9:25 pm
The Huckster’s perception of God appears to be one of an ego-centric, malevolent, micro-managing sadist — somewhat akin to how many of them treat their wives.
It’s rather disturbing that so many members of the Religious Right believe that the Christian view of God is a supreme entity that would gladly sit on the sidelines and watch innocent young children be murdered in order to make a political point.
Curious. Some social conservatives claim that the tragedy could have been prevented if only religion was an integral component of the public school curriculum, while others insist that the mayhem would have been minimized if teachers were encouraged to keep loaded guns in their classrooms.
It would seem as though Obama was right — right wingers do indeed cling to their Bibles and bullets, expecting God and guns to solve their problems.
SinghX
Dec. 18th, 2012 at 7:20 am
What “Reich” Huckabee and company are deeply enmeshed within is the psychological theory known as “projection”.
It is defined as a defense mechanism in which ones own “unacceptable” behaviors are attributed to “the other”.
They have little control over these subconscious or unconscious impulses to blame others for their own “desires”…that’s why we see a constant, absurd “rubber-glue” game played out.
They are compelled to act out in this way because the truth, the reality of their own abusive, highly dysfunctional or pathological behaviors are too shameful, too dangerous to acknowledged–again that’s why the seize on to power and control over perceived moral issues, gay bashing, oppressing women, advocacy of spanking children in school, etc.
And one more thing; the escalation of “projection” classically used by these folks as their primary defense mechanism of “survival”, is usually connected to the following personality disorders: Paranoid personality disorder, narcissistic personality disorder, antisocial personality disorder and psychopathy…
What I am more worried about is when they “snap” this could turns into something called “AMT” or Abusive Multiple Transference…that’s another story tied to power and control…we really need to take their weapons away from them and soon.
Wow
Dec. 19th, 2012 at 7:39 am
Not true. I won’t try to convince you otherwise. This just simply isn’t based in full reality. I won’t deny it is true for some, but not all.
Rho
Dec. 18th, 2012 at 7:15 am
They should cling to their Bibles and bullets, and leave them out of their guns! Hold on to them tightly, and don’t let go, hence they will not stray into the flesh of innocents.
The U.S. flag has been flying at half-mast far too often lately. I can only hope the other gods can jump in and stop Yahweh from another war-mongering rampage.
Wow
Dec. 19th, 2012 at 7:35 am
Bullets and the Bible are not synonymous. God is not responsible for this. Lack of prayer in schools or even society is not responsible for this. Lack of Him in the hearts of people and being true representatives of love, peace, patience, kindness, etc. have allowed the Enemy to run the show. He is responsible for this. I just hope people begin to realize it before it’s too late for them.
Anne
Dec. 18th, 2012 at 8:31 am
What on earth do they imagine churches are for, if not to worship as they see fit? It’s obvious that they believe they should be able to impose their faith on atheists, agnostics, or people of other faiths, rather than simply practicing it in a setting with like-minded people. That’s one of the reasons that churches exist. For people who love to invoke God’s name, they are extremely selective in which tenets of the Bible they are willing to follow. They are intolerant, self-righteous, lacking in compassion for “others,” and inclined to eschew the kind of critical thinking that would actually go a long way toward solving this huge problem that’s been responsible for the senseless deaths of so many kids. Their power-grabbing attempts are painfully transparent, and they target gullible folks who are easily scared by their demagoguery. With their strident hatefulness, they make a mockery of the very religion they profess to follow.
Wow
Dec. 19th, 2012 at 7:32 am
Sadly, I think you’ve missed the whole point of God’s message. Christians can be terrible representatives of Him and for that, I apologize. I encourage you to seek Truth and ignore the Pharisitic style representatives of a God who loves you, even if you don’t believe in Him. That’s just who He is.
Anne
Dec. 19th, 2012 at 8:31 am
Please don’t presume to tell me whether I am a believer or not when you don’t personally know me. Actually, I AM a believer, but I am firmly against trying to jam my beliefs down the throats of others. My point still stands about churches, where people are free to worship as they see fit and to fellowship with others who believe as they do. History provides too many examples of the disastrous results of politicizing religion to the point of creating theocracies for us to ignore. If God is in people’s lives, being in a setting where prayer is not practiced will not change that. Besides, religious beliefs provide a moral compass to live one’s life by, but they don’t change the fact that people still have to use critical thinking. People like Mike Huckabee like to invoke God’s name, but they apparently fail to take into account that religious belief has to be accompanied by sound judgment and common sense to be meaningful.
Wow
Dec. 19th, 2012 at 9:25 am
Hmmm. Not sure where apologizing for the actions of people who do not represent God for who He truly is was insinuating YOU weren’t a believer. You used the word “they” and I was pointing out that ‘they’ are not always the best representation. You almost sound belligerent on the insistence that ‘they’ are ‘jamming him down the throats of others’. For sure, that’s not what we’re called to do. What we are called to do is pursue the hearts of the lost with love, patience, peace, kindness, etc. I don’t put Mike Huckabee’s remarks in the ‘they’ category. What he said is not worthy of the lashing he is receiving and he certainly did not jam him down the throats of anyone. What he did do is call out those who denounce Him daily, but in times of disaster wonder where He was. It’s as if people WANT to believe, but choose not to and use disaster as proof He doesn’t exist. It’s baffling. As a believer, I assume you see how the enemy has penetrated society, so for most of us it is heart wrenching to watch as he seems to win. Praise God we know how the story ends. We’re living with the consequences of sin. If people choose not to believe, then that doesn’t make sense…at all. Our role is to be a living example praying and hoping the world sees the light in us. It’s overwhelming to watch as the world belittles, degrades, and mocks the God I love and know. However, He’s used to it and we just have to trust Him that His word is True no matter what people choose to believe and make it.
Anne
Dec. 19th, 2012 at 10:25 am
We are only talking about the hard right so-called Christians, many of whose actions are in direct contradiction to the teachings and examples of Jesus Christ. They ARE trying to force their beliefs on everyone else, and they are nothing like the Christians who ARE seriously practicing Christ’s teachings and examples. My maternal grandmother exemplified what you are talking about better than anyone else I have ever known, and she knew her faith was not threatened by the beliefs of those who think or worship differently. There are many other Christians who are like her, and don’t spew the hatred and ignorance that these fake ones do. I’m not “apologizing” for anyone, just stating facts.
Wow
Dec. 19th, 2012 at 10:43 am
I know what you’re saying. And praise God I was raised in an environment where Jesus was represented Biblically. All I know to do is keep my eyes on Him, stay rooted in Scripture, and let Him guide my steps and words. However, I do apologize frequently to people especially the lost for my own misguided efforts and words and for those of others who misrepresent Him. We all fall short, so we just have to do the best we can in Him to get back to the real work of Jesus.
Shiva (Moderator)
Dec. 19th, 2012 at 10:50 am
You can do that, I will depend on myself.
Wow
Dec. 19th, 2012 at 10:52 am
Well, I was speaking to those who are believers, but okay.
Shiva (Moderator)
Dec. 19th, 2012 at 10:59 am
No problem. We both understand there is a difference between fundamentalists and regular everyday xtians
Wow
Dec. 19th, 2012 at 11:25 am
Exactly! I just happened on this article and I usually avoid the comments sections altogether with everything I read. For some reason, I got roped in. I just shake my head at those who seem to be opposite of fundamentalists screaming blame at a God they don’t even believe in and adherence to keeping Him out of every aspect of our lives, even privately. Both sides have extremist tendencies. I wish the human race could find a way to get along without being so full of hate for those who have opposing opinions. I think we’ve just proven that’s possible!
Phillip
Dec. 18th, 2012 at 10:18 am
I am an evangelical Christian (please don’t stop reading at this point) and I want to offer my point of view. God did not punish those children. He is the penultimate definition of love and justice and there has never been an indication where He has exercised His power upon innocent children or other innocent people.
As to His being “kicked out” of schools, there can never be any laws enacted nor any other action that can be taken that can prevent God from being anywhere. He always has been and always will be omnipotent and omnipresent.
In His plan for creation, there was no sin, but man invented sin. His plan also provided free will so that we are not bound to be robots in His world. In this horrific case, a single individual exercised his right of free will and made a choice to commit an act of violence that was abhorrent. This decision resulted in the lives of these children, teachers, and administrators being taken tragically and prematurely.
I truly believe that God could have intervened in this situation and stopped this heinous act. But, I am not omniscient and therefore I cannot explain why God chooses to intervene in some situations and not in others. You see, we do not know the countless number of times that God has intervened and prevented these tragedies, because they did not occur and were never reported. How many times has He spoken to a troubled person that was contemplating this type of act and persuaded them not to carry out their plan? These events we do not know. We are only aware of the ones He allows to occur and we cannot understand why He allows them.
Oddly enough, the very people that do not want to be “controlled” by God are the ones that blame Him when He doesn’t intervene. They deny His power and often His existence, but then blame Him when these events occur. That seems very inconsistent to me. If we want God to watch over us, then we must surrender to Him, relinquish control of our lives to Him, and allow Him to…
Sehb
Dec. 19th, 2012 at 12:33 am
Uhuh, okay. “Interesting” perspective. I want to first off note that I don’t know ANYONE who doesn’t believe in God and then blames him for not controlling the events of the universe to their satisfaction. Are you people so pompus to assume you as individuals are important enough for your god to change his mind and actions over how good you make him feel that day? Or is it that you think so lowly of your god that you assume he needs constant adoration and titulation to not go on a crazy people-killing rampage of rage. Do try and read the Old Testament (i know it’s wordy and long, but still very interesting if you can get past all the blood, gore, sex, and violence) before arguing this point with me, because it seems like nothing but anger that drives god to do the things he apparently did (that are conviniently not recorded in any other historical source).
And here’s my little conundrum I’m thinking you can help me with. So, you say, God did not plan for sin in his original design.. but MAN invented it. Interesting point of veiw. I was somehow under the impression that Satan was responsible for the sin.. and God certainly made Satan. On another note, it is also written in your book that God knew all and preordained all before he created anything.. so, thus, he obviously knew about sin and created that too. Something cannot come from nothing, as everything needs a seed to grow from. Since god is apparently so full of feelings (good and bad, and don’t tell me getting angry because your sheep sacrifice that day sucked isn’t a negative emotion), and he gave those feelings to man, man got all the negative feelings that lead to sin as well. If there was no darkness in the universe, where did it come from? Or are men (and I really think you mean to say women) SO powerful they themselves have the ability to create things out of nothingness?
[email protected]
Dec. 18th, 2012 at 9:54 pm
Wow, why are you atheist so mad at the world? In particular, why do you force your atheistic religion down everyones throat?
Shiva (Moderator)
Dec. 18th, 2012 at 10:09 pm
LOL. The people beign talked about here are fundamentalists. Not xtians in the real sense.
Love the tall tale about atheists though. You have your talking points down well grasshopper
Wow
Dec. 19th, 2012 at 7:26 am
Agreed. They just don’t get it. Breaks my heart.
Shiva (Moderator)
Dec. 19th, 2012 at 8:13 am
YOU dont get it. This article is about the extreme elements of christianity. Not normal every day xtians
Wow
Dec. 19th, 2012 at 10:03 am
I agree with you that some ‘Christians’ are over the top. And as much as I would love an open discussion about this, I’m going to refrain from saying too much. I am open for it if you are, but I’m not here to be one of ‘those’ people.
Shiva (Moderator)
Dec. 19th, 2012 at 10:11 am
Actually itsd not some christians. Its a very broad group of people whos ay they are christians but under no circumstances are christians. And according to them neither are you. Look up 7 mountains, the website godsownparty.com/blog/
They are in our military, the force behind Texas governor Perry and Bachman as well as others in the government.
Johnee
Dec. 19th, 2012 at 12:20 pm
As Shiva eluded to above Wow, The problem is that those extremists are trying to force their beliefs down everyone’s throat not just by words, but by LEGISALTION. They are trying to dictate public policy by their beliefs. (i.e make it the law of the land). This is the biggest problem that most people posting on this thread have with these folks.
If it was simply a matter of a few whackos spouting off, and they didn’t have the disproportionate influence in politics that they currently do…. then I would just shrug them off.
Wow
Dec. 19th, 2012 at 2:32 pm
Johnee, I know what some of you mean here. This site doesn’t come close to the hate I’ve seen on others. I think some times the extremists overshadow even their own intentions with their methods and ways of getting it out there. Don’t get me wrong. There’s not an extremist group out there that I agree with, let alone support. I just think they’ve lost sight of what they’re even fighting for. As for those trying to pass legislation, I think we live in a climate where we’ll never agree on this subject. Everybody has the answer and that divides us so much that we start hating one another. As a teacher, I adhere to the law in that I don’t in any shape or form shove my beliefs down anyone’s throat. Having been in that climate for years, character education wouldn’t be the worst thing that could happen in our schools. Yes, we help to teach kids basic core values of getting along in a society, but I’m talking in depth moral compass values. Problem is, who sets the standard for that? My God, your god, no god, society, etc. So, I get the argument that it could never easily be decided. The God that most people say they serve and worship has laid out some pretty basic principles that if we were to adhere to, we would see a marked difference in society. I’ve posted these several times but I see no harm in encouraging children to love, to exhibit peace, kindness, patience,etc. Remarkably, Christians, some Muslims, Jews, even atheists have agreed that the world could certainly use more people who exude these qualities. Indoctrination of personal beliefs doesn’t have to overshadow the need to encourage value in the lives of young people. Maybe having been in several districts across the US, I have a different perspective on the subject. Legalizing prayer is not the answer. However, I have a hope to see a difference in the lives of students/adults everywhere. I know there are others, but the issue of prayer in school is fresh. I personally believe that won’t change a…
Johnee
Dec. 19th, 2012 at 3:06 pm
Wow I pretty much agreed with everything you just said. However, let me clarify further it’s no just ethics and moral behavior; no, the extremists are trying to legislate religious BELIEF. As you say you have many friends from different walks of life but they already share unspoken rules of acceptable behavior in a civilized society: To not harm others, respect, courtesy…basically treating others the way you want to be treated (i.e. the golden rule). I doubt that you would get much argument from all the posters here that these are all good things and are necessary for us to co-exist.
The difference is that the religious right/dominionists say one cannot have any morality at all if one isn’t an evangelical Christian because that’s where ALL MORALITY COMES FROM. In other words ALL the religious beliefs that they have cannot be separated form being a good and moral person and therefore must be enforced through the government (i.e. school prayer, anti-sodomy laws, etc.).
Wow
Dec. 19th, 2012 at 3:49 pm
Haha! I’m so surprised I didn’t get raked across the coals by someone for that last one! And my points were just to say that there is a common ground we just need to find it without imposing on the freedom of people to practice their own faiths or lack thereof. I won’t deny that fundamentalists make us all (Christians) look bad. Worse, they make Christ look like He’s waiting at the gates of hell to say “I told ya so”. Just glad you see we’re not all like that!
Wow
Dec. 19th, 2012 at 10:36 am
I didn’t see a reply button on that last thread, but I’m familiar with a lot of groups like that. They repulse me. My husband and I even have ‘friends’ who don’t believe we are ‘saved’ because we weren’t baptized correctly. EVERYbody has it right and it turns into ugliness that makes my skin crawl. I have a dear, sweet friend who is Muslim. Her children are great friends with mine. I do not live in fear that their beliefs are going to rub off on my children and she and even her husband (which is HUGE in that culture) feel the same. We have not condemned them, nor have they us. We just love each other and respect that we don’t have the same belief system. I know there are crazies out there who think otherwise, but I hope (and pray) that our family represents God in a way that overshadows these estremist creeps.
Sehb
Dec. 19th, 2012 at 12:35 am
So… what’s the purpose of free will in a sin free society? With nothing bad going on, people wouldn’t even be able to differentiate the good, and there would be no choices to make. But then again I forget Christians have an interesting view of “sin” that forgets some things normal human beings would normally consider sin and classifies things that aren’t really sin as sin. I absolutely love how your god makes a person, with human personality traits and all, and KNOWS what this person will turn out to be/do, and then punishes them for doing exactly that. Time to stop nit-picking the Bible, but with so many contradictions it can be hard to follow, I understand.
And finally, I would like you to explain heaven to me. As far as I hear it’s supposed to be a place where every good person (usually by absolving sins rather than being totally pure 100% of the time) gets to be happy and free of illness, pain, etc. But it seems to me like you’d have to remove everyone’s personality, free will, likes, and dislikes to get heaven to work. And then they aren’t really people are they, just non-sentient floating souls. Imagine, the worst killer in the world gets absolution and ends up in heaven… with their free will. I wonder if you can kill people that aren’t technically alive anymore? Or imagine a decent person who didn’t do anything wrong but just so happens to hate a certain other person, or a certain type of people. They get to heaven (because they haven’t broken any technical rule), and then have to be around all these people they are biased against.. sounds like a happy time to me. Or are the standards of heaven so impossibly high you only assume your priests and popes get in. The rest of us get to go to hell with every single person ever born not Christian, and every single person who died before Christianity was even invented? Lovely, book my flight there please.
Wow
Dec. 19th, 2012 at 7:25 am
I find some agreement in what you shared in this post, but overall I find it deeply disheartening. I hope the Truth overwhelms you and your heart opens fully and freely to it.
Sehb
Dec. 19th, 2012 at 3:39 pm
If it is disheartening to you, maybe that’s because it is the truth. To overlook those points would be a lie, for certain. I do not find myself unhappy in the least for my views on this matter, I just find it depression people (churches) are still trying to accumulate and assimilate little soldiers for their god. And they are soldiers. To even look at the Bible as a great moral story without assuming physical occurrence, makes it a very poor moral story. It essentially says if you are a certain person (and we all know the canon) you are entitled to feel righteous, and if you don’t get your way… it’s okay to use violence to solve your problems. What could possibly go wrong with that ideology?? Oh you know, the Crusades, Witch Trials, burnings, stoning, imprisonments, rapes, and thousands of other atrocities committed by “good Christians” in the name of their god. Eventually some Christian somewhere is going to have to start breaking through some of that from-birth cult worship brainwashing and realize there is something very flawed with the Christian religion. I absolutely cannot get by a “father figure” who seems to be so fine (and even joyful in some cases) about slaughtering his own children. The Christian god does not make a good father in my books. Would you beat your children to bleed and then tell them it’s because you love them and they shouldn’t even try and understand your actions?Now before you go blaming the poor atheists, and accusing me of atheism, as so many Christians are wont to do when someone disagrees with their deity, I am not. I know the truth, and I feel it for myself, within myself, and it makes me feel infinitely better than anyone under the thumb of your fear-tactic controlling vengeful god ever could. I can say my god is impartial and fair, and that I do not need to go blaming them and imploring them for every little whinny aspect of my life. I’m strong enough to solve my own problems, and take responsiblity for my own actions.
Wow
Dec. 19th, 2012 at 3:57 pm
And you are entitled to hold to every word you just stated. I will do the same when it comes to what I believe to be true.
Wow
Dec. 19th, 2012 at 4:02 pm
And I mistakenly replied to the author of this article without addressing him/her. So, if you thought my comments were toward your post, that was my goof. I haven’t even read it. I just happened to see your tag in the previous. I know your feelings haven’t changed, just wanted to clarify.