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You Come for Our Unions We Come for Your Corporate Mega Churches
AFL-CIO President Richard Trumpka gave a rousing speech this week about the need for a mobile, global labor movement to counter-act the attacks on workers around the globe. He pointed out that in a declining economy, politics become vicious and the viscous attack. And most importantly, he noted that the CEO backed Republicans attacked unions and collective bargaining because the unions are weak right now. The Republicans thought it would be an easy kill.
They were wrong.
But instead of just fighting to hang on, we need to fight for the rights of all workers, we need to fight to grow union labor and grow workers rights if we are to save the middle class. We need to grow an army of people dedicated to workers rights who can and will protest peacefully and memorably as they did in Madison at the drop of a hat. We need to take the Madison spirit, the Egyptian spirit, and the Tunisian spirit – and plant it, feed it, nurture it.
We need to be educating our fellow citizens and teaching our children about the importance of unions. We need solidarity to extend permanently, not just during a crisis. We need to come together for the battle of a lifetime. We need to unite all unions and middle class labor under the umbrella of human rights and we need to hold our elected officials from both parties accountable to labor. Fight for the people, represent the people, or get out. But we also need to go on the attack. We will not advance the cause of the middle class by mere defense of battle lines.
Instead of being on the defense, we need to be on the offense. Republicans present the notion that unions are to blame for the budget crisis while urging the parishioners of huge tax exempt mega churches to vote Republican. Mega churches have become political action committees for all intents and purposes, and as such, are on par with how Republicans see unions. If taking away collective bargaining rights is necessary under the guise of a fiscal emergency, what other rights are up for grabs? Perhaps the next right to be targeted should be a Republican PAC such as mega churches.
The Republicans’ attack on workers can be compared to the tactics of an abusive spouse attacking the less powerful member of the household, using physical and/or financial power to threaten and control the other. One of the tactics inherent in this power structure is the abuser kicks the victim and then demands more concessions in order to stop kicking them. The stunned victim will often give in, seeking to end the abuse. Our minds assume that if someone is attacking us they must have a reason; and so when we hear Scott Walkers of the world saying we have a fiscal emergency and that is why you must give up your rights, many of us assume there must be an emergency and it must be the fault of labor or why would Walker be seeking to end their power?
Of course, as we have learned, Governor Walker did not have a legitimate reason for pushing to kill collective bargaining. It gained him nothing fiscally. He merely wanted the power to kill the unions. Think of him as the abuser who wanted the power to hold the purse strings so he could abuse his powerless victim even more. A victim who can’t leave because they have no financial power is much easier to kick the next time.
And his victim isn’t just the unions – his victim is in fact all of the middle class.
The thing to do in this situation isn’t to merely fight the stated issue, but change the terms, create an atmosphere of instability for the abuser. The victim needs to redefine the playing field. While the unions are busy seeking to grow solidarity and membership and educating the public about the benefits to society, the rest of us need to be fighting the corporate power in other ways. We need to demand that our representatives stand for the people and not for corporations. We need to not only fight to maintain the power we still have, but we need to go after the institutions supporting and advocating for the attack on the middle class in new and unique ways.
An example of being on the offense would be a mass movement to take away the tax-free status of mega churches that are violating the electioneering rules — a coordinated effort across the country to go after these folks for taxes since they have been actively involved in politics and crossing state lines to do so for way too long.
Churches are tax exempt under the principle that there is no surer way to destroy the free exercise of religion than to tax it; but tax exemption is a privilege, not a right and by accepting the tax exemption, the entity agrees to some oversight. The 1954 federal Johnson Amendment prohibits a pastor from talking about candidates from the pulpit. Furthermore, under the Internal Revenue Code, all IRC section 501(c)(3) organizations, including churches and religious organizations, are absolutely prohibited from directly or indirectly participating in, or intervening in, any political campaign on behalf of (or in opposition to) any candidate for elective public office. Contributions to political campaign funds or public statements of position (verbal or written) made by or on behalf of the organization in favor of or in opposition to any candidate for public office clearly violate the prohibition against political campaign activity. Violation of this prohibition may result in denial or revocation of tax-exempt status and the imposition of certain excise tax.
Tax exemption is a voluntary agreement and presumes no electioneering from the pulpit, and yet we have seen wide-spread electioneering from the pulpit, in both national elections and state legislation (Prop 8 for example). In part, tax exemption for non-profits was also based on the notion that these entities were providing private support for public good (food for the hungry, shelter for the homeless, etc). The First Amendment does not specifically guarantee the tax exemption right either, though lawyers for churches have made the argument that it is implied or intended.
Tax exemption for churches is not specifically mandated in the Constitution; it was an agreement by governmental bodies in an attempt to protect free speech. Like any agreement, it was supposed to work two ways but in the last 40 years, we’ve seen egregious violations of the pulpit electioneering rules. Gee, we have a budget crises and everyone has to share the sacrifice and here we see the burgeoning wealth of these mega churches that are violating their agreements with the government. God is clearly telling us that they can not only afford to pay a bit into the system so that a teacher in Michigan can afford to feed their children, but that they want to pay into the system. They violated the agreement their tax exemption was based upon; now they can participate in shared sacrifices.
While labor defends the front lines, we need to be seeking to disempower the corporate beast from behind and the side – anywhere there is vulnerability. Much as Republicans planned and coordinated this mass attack on labor, women’s rights and seniors, we need to coordinate with all of the various constituencies that represent the people and fight the beast of the corporate take over of America.
We have dire financial issues facing us, but the answer to these crises is not to cheapen labor and the middle class, especially not when there is plenty of money to be found in taxing mega churches that violate their tax exemption agreements and in taxing corporations their fair share.
We need to stop the subsidies and welfare to corporations and political animals masquerading as churches. Let them pony up their shared sacrifices before we feed the people to the angry and relentlessly greedy GOP corporate beast. If they want the assistance they are getting from the federal government currently, they have to play by the rules like everyone else does. After all, what is the difference between a lazy welfare bum who isn’t really looking for work and a mega church that isn’t really avoiding violating the electioneering rules? Both are taking federal assistance based on an agreement. It could be argued that the only difference is a matter of perspective.
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boil
Apr. 30th, 2011 at 4:59 pm
hey dont forget about the scientologists. they have massive amounts of properties, especially in los angeles, all tax free. in fact they just bought a huge tv production facility that once was a famous film studio, and now its tax exempt…
and i for one, will not attend even dem. political meetings in a church, as i am not an xtian, and find even being in those places disconcerting at best…..
Sarah Jones
Apr. 30th, 2011 at 5:07 pm
Of course, all religions should be included in this if they are violating their agreement. All religions should be treated equally under the law.
jophnnie marlow
Apr. 30th, 2011 at 6:09 pm
What room is there for hate in God’s House. Shame on you, you will reap what you sow. I am appauled a CHURCH would put this up. It offend me a a christain!!!! My LORD loves all of us. Oh watch what you are doing in God name,,,,shame . I would not want tyo be in your shoes onm judgement day. Man i have done a lot of things wrong, saved by grace, but you used this to offend and cause hatred.May God have mercy on your soul. I will pray for you, and maybe you can find the LORD in your heart and repair this sign and your hate!!!!!!!!!!!!
Shiva (Moderator)
Apr. 30th, 2011 at 6:15 pm
Does god love muslims? Does he love the two million kids that die yearly for lack of clean water? did he love the people we have killed in the last 9 years or so? Or does god love Americans and help people to win boxing matches?
Ingarose
Apr. 30th, 2011 at 6:55 pm
According to Franklin Graham, God does not love muslims. They have the wrong religion and according to him the religion is evil. These people are totally crazy. Many believe that God favored Americans and the arrogance of some is astounding.
Shiva (Moderator)
Apr. 30th, 2011 at 6:58 pm
If thats the case, why didnt Jesus start the US? What a crushing conundrum
DannyEastVillage
Apr. 30th, 2011 at 7:25 pm
how about “what a crushing crock”?
Shiva (Moderator)
Apr. 30th, 2011 at 8:07 pm
well yeah that too
crane123
May. 1st, 2011 at 7:43 pm
If you listen to some of these guys, they actually do think that God created American for Americans..
TitusInChains
May. 1st, 2011 at 5:49 pm
The funniest thing about this ridiculous claim is that Christianity, Judaism and Islam all have the same common Abrahamic root. God, Yaweh, and Allah are essentially the same entity. The schism between the three religions is who they acknowledge as prophets.
lindy abbott
May. 2nd, 2011 at 4:26 pm
You error in one fact, Jesus is not a prophet … He is God. He lived on earth as God’s Son. He died on the cross to take away your sins, and was buried. On the third day HE rose from the dead conquering eternal death and sin. No one has to be separated from God. No prophet in the History of mankind was God. Jesus is alive and is GOD. This is a BIG difference.
lindy abbott
May. 2nd, 2011 at 4:20 pm
God loves all human beings. He is their creator. He is your creator. Muslims and all others who reject Jesus grace of forgiveness of sins and being a recipient spiritual gifts and blessings receive the punishment of Hell which was made for satan and the fallen angels (demons) not humans. God desires that not one soul goes to hell. Hell is a place of permanent separation from God (and all that is good). How do I know these things? Because God has spoken. He loves us so much he has given us His Word. Anyone who reads the Bible with a desire to understand life, to know truth, to be open-minded to seeking with a rational mind will read with their own eyes. No one has to be convinced, one just needs to resist being tricked into not reading the Bible …. thinking it is something it is not.
If you want to know about Muslims read the Bible, God talks about Ishmael in Genesis. Ishmael is Abraham’s son. Read how God protects and blesses Ishmael.
There is a battle between good and evil. While it can be seen on the physical level in our world on earth, it is much more visual and active on the spiritual level. You need to be spiritually alive in right relationship with God to see and know what happens spiritually. If you don’t you can only see and understand the physical and mental realm of live. You speak of what you don’t know because you have not read the Bible to find out for yourselves instead of relying on second hand information.
I recently read the majority of the Koran because I wanted to know first hand what it said and what Muslims are taught. It tells things about God and people of the Bible. You would be shocked to see how much it talks about all the people of the Old Testament… Moses, Lot, Noah, Mary, Jesus, Abraham. In this way it shows that Mohammad knew these people were real.
It is a fact that Jesus lived, died and rose from death (therefore conquering eternal death of the spirit for those who will believe in Him and the way to God the Father). Mohammad did not write the Koran until 630 years after Jesus died. Mohammad had the old testament Bible to refer to as he wrote the Koran, that must be why he spoke so frequently of people in the Bible.
The Canaanite land was given to Abraham as a promise. It was not received by the Hebrews until after they were freed from slavery by the Egyptians through Moses… and 40 years late because they rebelled against God. Israel the nation that received this large area of land from God, but in continual sinning against God, He let them be conquered… He gave them to their wicked ways. Israel was captured by Babylonians and Jerusalem was torn apart. Israel was split into two literal Nations.
The Romans eventually conquered this land and ruled over the Hebrews (Jews) even up until the time of Jesus birth. The Jews wanted a messiah to come and save them from Rome, to be saved in a physical battle… but God wanted to save them from the spiritual battle and eternity in hell. He wanted to set them free from internal bondage from sin. He wanted them to know and live in liberty, to know peace in their heart. Many of the Jews rejected Jesus because he didn’t fight a military battle for them… he didn’t kill the Romans. Jesus never killed one person, and he never fought. He came for all people… the Jews did not understand this, they thought the messiah would only help them. God loves all people.
So those who followed Jesus became his followers and known later as Christians. The Jews hated Christians, and so did many governments. They did not want people to have freedom to believe God and worship him as they desired.
It was not until 300 ad that the Catholic Church started to develop hierarchal power to control the large population of believers. They soon made the words of the Bible in latin so common people would not understand it or be able to read it. After a generation or two, Christians forgot that they were free unto God not unto priest, bishops, cardinals and a Pope. But since they could not read God’s Word, they lived under Catholic control.
In the mid-600′s ad, Mohammed claimed he had a visit from the Angel Gabriel that also visited Mary. He stated that Gabriel gave him the words to write down to make the Koran. At first Mohammed lived in Mecca and he was peacefully trying to get people to believe in his writings as truth. When people would reject them and clung to the Torah or the Bible, he slaughtered them. He took Jerusalem by force, and killed many innocent people (women, children, etc.) just for not believing.
Again in 1000 ad the Catholic church began getting stronger, and they used the Knights of Europe as Crusaders. The Cardinals and Bishops didn’t like have powerful heros in their parishes and wanted to get rid of them… what better way then to send them to war against Muslims. The knights felt they were serving God, and so did the Muslims… but neither were because they did not know God’s Word; they did not read the Bible… they couldn’t understand it in latin and so few copies were available.
In 1500′s a cardinal leader in the Catholic Church Martin Luther who knew latin started to read the Bible and realized that Christians were not living as God has written. He could only get assess to a Latin Bible chained onto a pedestal. But he was determine to obey God, and wrote 95 points that the Catholic church was disobeying and posted it onto the Catholic church door for all to read.
The people who read these items and believed became what is known as the reformers. It is from this group of reformers who began translating the Bible into common language (German- Martin Luther, Tyndale-Old English, Wycliffe-other common languages) that Christianity began again to spread rapidly. The people could read God’s word and by reading it they believed God. The English government did not want people to have their own faith with God, they wanted to control what people believed so everyone was forced to worship only in the offical state church,the Anglican Church. The pilgrims and many earlier settlers that came to america land were protestant (they protested against Catholic/Anglican Church), puritans, and ana-baptist (didn’t believe in infant baptism).
It was not until the revival they finally swept England of people hearing the real word of God openly preached that the spirit of God moved mightily among Europe… some of these preachers came to america colonies, and revival swept through many of the colonies towns. Hymns could be frequently heard at night being sung from open windows in towns, people gave themselves to God of the Bible.
It was then that the colonies recognized how they were being oppressed by the Britain Mother country. It was not all people in the colonies. Only about 25% wanted to go to war, many tried over and over to make peace with parliament but all for naught. Burke, a Britain leader, gave one of the greatest speeches recorded in history in the chambers of parliament pleading with Britain to listen to the colonist and not go to war.
The colonist wanted protection from overbearing laws of taxation and being a policed state… remember they travel as families risking everything, including death, for freedom. These were strong people because they lived in very difficult situations having to being independent and work hard are they would die in the new land. No lazy people survived except for a few aristocrats who paid others to work for them.
So these colonist joined together with representative to write and sign the Declaration of Independence… in doing so, they signed their death warrant… Each sinner of the Declaration of Independence lost all their money, many family members and most of all their life dedicating their life to establish a Nation that would be a place where people could always freely read the Bible and worship God having no limits placed on them to read, express, publish, speak or study their thoughts of life and God. They wanted to live under limited government and to have God be in charge of their life, not political leaders.
After the war was won, they wrote the Constitution and the Bill of Rights. They prayerfully and carefully took their time wanting to get every word right to stand the test of time. And here we are, over 200 years later… under usurping control of powerful, greedy, rich people in both monopolies, monster companies, government and unions. Not all people who own a business or run a company are corrupt; not all leaders/politicians are corrupt. Many of both are.
Americans have an independent spirit and don’t desire outside control because they were through the blood of those who have died to protect liberty, the ability to have internal control through believing God and reading God’s Word to know what is truth… what is right and what is wrong.
Strong controlling leaders don’t want the masses to read the Bible, they want to control people, as in all times of history. They took the Bible out of public schools so they people who didn’t know God never would and to remove a strong desire to learn to read and right. Also they pushed a false teaching they we evolved because they didn’t want people to know their high value. Anyone that believes they are created by God seek Him to understand the purpose God created them, they rejoice knowing their life has meaning and they God made them unique to be a special person to be treasured and talented in specific ways. This give people great hope and high value in human life. Without this, it was easy to allow humans the ability to abort their unborn child through abortion. Human life has not much value… about equal to a pet or a wild animal becoming extinct…
Now we are here in time, 2011 AD, we each have a choice to make. Are you going to at the very least read the Bible or are you going to blindly believe what instructor, leaders, relatives, schools, government is telling you to be true. Should not a thinking person at least find out for themselves? I think every person owes this to themselves. Don’t you want to know firsthand or are you willing to live on earth and then die without ever knowing God? It is your choice.
Shiva (Moderator)
May. 2nd, 2011 at 4:23 pm
My god, the whole bible of talking points in one post!
Sorry, you didnt answer my question. And I HAVE read the bible, and I dont need it to get by. If I believe in your god, I have to believe in the 1500 other gods as well.
Nancy P
May. 1st, 2011 at 9:02 am
To Jophnnie, I hope you will read about the separation of church and state in the U. S. Constitution. Once you do, I think you will understand the difference between a right and a privilege. We don’t tax the churches of any religion in this country as a privilege, but in return we ask that they don’t mix their message with political/hate/bigoted speech. If they choose to mix their message with the messages of the state, then they should be taxed like any other entity, individual or corporation. They make money and, in some cases, millions of $, so what gives them the right to participate in the state’s business? They should be all about the message of their prophet/s. Also, in the case of the mega churches, their pastors/CEOs make enormous amounts of money, taxfree. At this point in our history, do you really think that we should exempt them from taxes that everyone, even the very poor, have to pay? It’s not hate, Jophnnie, it is fairness. After all, give unto your god what is god’s and unto Caesar (the state), what is Caesar’s. I do hope you will read our Constitution, and take the message of this article in the spirit that it was written. We only ask for fairness in our tax system.
Susan
May. 1st, 2011 at 12:15 pm
Give me a break, christian fool. It’s religious nuts like you who are destroying the world. Organized religion is the devil in disguise. Ever hear of fables. Your bible is one big made up fable.
Kitty Jones
May. 1st, 2011 at 3:26 pm
Yes, it is very sad to see CHURCH leaders “pointing fingers” and “judging” others – Hmmm? Wonder what they do when they get to the scriptures about sins, judgments, hate, boast, and so on! Oh well, as the scriptures say, those who follow hate will be LEFT BEHIND! I wonder if they have their bags packed to relocate to HELL because they are surely not going upstairs with that hate!
Reynardine
Apr. 30th, 2011 at 5:03 pm
I can remember when the Haitian Refugee Center of Miami was disqualified from receiving tax-exempt donations for suing the Reagan administration over its discriminatory treatment of Haitian asylees, on the grounds that it was “too” partisan: this was part of a campaign called “defunding the left”. Under that standard, there is no reason why donations to these plastic-Jesus Godcorps should be deductible for either the donor or the recipient, and there is no reason why any church (no names mentioned) who threatens to excommunicate anyone who votes for a certain candidate or party should be exempt from property taxes, either. As it is, they are taking charity from us all while evincing malice towards some, and they should be doing it on their own dime.
RHEA CHERRITH
Apr. 30th, 2011 at 5:49 pm
i have been to many churches and always up the same the mass worship paising of god, the tear then taking up 3 not 1 offering and then begging you to sacrifice to sow a seed to the ministry and give till it hurts and he(jesus) will give you a multitude blessing a 7 fold prosparity back in return. it works for them but often distitudes the widow and poor and the disable. oh the churches are o too large, the pasors have no time for the little person just too talk. then they do not sacrifice, they own fancy car and mansions boats and pools. this is what mega churches are and do not pay taxes. elections anymore are a nightmare in the church if you are not a republicain, they push their agenda hate and racist remarks. last and final word they spew is if you do not vote republican then you are not a child of god. this is the norm for mega churchs. besides keeping women under submision without a voice. and always the abortion issue. in a as bible belt state that no one in the state of arkansas dose abortion.
Nasty Liberal
Apr. 30th, 2011 at 8:00 pm
Let loose OF the CAPS LOCK, will you please?
diz
Apr. 30th, 2011 at 5:58 pm
Make Franklin Graham, President & CEO of the Billy Graham Evangelical Assoc the poster boy of this movement. He doesn’t even bother to hide his shilling for the Repug party as he makes the rounds of the political pundit shows.
I have been screaming about this for many years and I am so thrilled to see you put it front and center. It’s amazes me how this has escaped the attention of the IRS for so long and especially now that their political interference has escalated. This may be one of the reasons the Repugs have been so quick to call for terminating so many jobs at the IRS. Defund, deregulate, destroy has certainly become the neo-Christian way.
Teacher in Cheeseland
Apr. 30th, 2011 at 6:00 pm
Excellent points. With the unions so severely weakened, you’re right, it’s not just the big Koch-type corporate money thst will continue to push the Republicn agenda. Quite an eye-opener.
Shiva (Moderator)
Apr. 30th, 2011 at 6:09 pm
Scott Walker wasnt the only one who wanted the unions gone, remember what he said when he talked to the Koch fiend. Its the plan.
It the republicans can unite behind the Koch fiends, then there is no reason workers cant have unions. We cant compete with the Koch money so something else has to be done. I can tell you and I know Sarah knows it, here in the south the Baptist church on the corner is where you find out who to vote for. I say take their money
Rita
Apr. 30th, 2011 at 6:57 pm
The reason I stopped attending church about seven years ago is because the junior pastor continually made inappropriate, Right-wing, partisan statements from the pulpit, and I finally could suffer it no longer. I never had a problem with his opinions, per se, but the fact that he said them from the pulpit was an abuse of power. That so-called community church also registered people to vote, and passed out literature endorsing pro-life candidates in their church sanctuary. I would be happy to see all such churches lose their undeserved tax-exempt status. I would also be happy if they were made to pay back taxes for all the years they took a tax-exempt status while operating as partisan political entities rather than as the non-partisan community service organizations they falsely claim to be.
Nasty Liberal
Apr. 30th, 2011 at 7:58 pm
Who’s “Humm”? I’ve heard of the other two, but not of him/her.
DannyEastVillage
Apr. 30th, 2011 at 8:11 pm
I would be willing to see my own church lose it’s tax-exempt status even though such shenanigans don’t go on in my parish. (It’s not the type of thing the Episcopal church is noted for.) In fact, our clergy steer wide of anything that could be remotely construed as endorsing a person, party, power or position. But the preaching does encourage us to be (in the words of Jesus) meek as lambs but wise as snakes; i.e., not to be pushy with our religious beliefs, but to pay shrewd close attention to what we see going on in the world around us in light of the gospel precept of practicing unconditional love for all.
I don’t mind if others think this sounds like belief in an imaginary man in the sky: I quite agree with that assessment when it comes to much that I hear and read about as coming from churches seeking to control our national life AND the life of my household–particularly my bedroom.
One of the wisest imaginable things the founders could have done is seek to keep religion out of the public sphere. I don’t understand why conservative have such a hard time comprehending that.
Mansfield Caruthers
May. 1st, 2011 at 12:45 am
So the Tea Party leans on Washington to downsize, and the union sympathizers say “let’s lean on Mega Churches”. I say, maybe this will be the start of a more back to the basics type of government. Where we pull back on exemptions for this and that group.
This could be something that affects both parties. And it might actually turn out good for small government advocates — liberatarians. Let’s pull back on all kinds of tax deductions, AND government subsidies, I say.
As someone who watches some of the mega churches on T.V., I don’t depend on them for who I vote for. I can find out the issues easily through voter guides on-line geared to Christians. The ones I looked at last time, I didn’t see an affiliation to any church. I think one was made up by a single guy that assembled a lot of the info himself. Looks like he might have done it all on his dime? So so much for going on the attack against a mega church, as a way of affecting the vote.
I also get a fair amount of my info from my local newspaper, that has a libertarian bent. And this paper has a bigger presence, in parts of greater L.A., than the Times does. So here is another influence, that is separate from the mega churches.
I like the downsize philosophy of the Tea Party — which I would say is their major issue. That government is too big and unsustainable at the current level it operates at. And that is why a lot of people are not happy with the public sector pensions as advocated by unions, or with those who continue to work for a department after retiring, collecting a pension and a large wage at the same time.
So my voting to try and get rid of this excess, has nothing to do with any mega church.
Oh, by the way, I doubt you’ll have much success on this mega church attack mode thing. Too many people see this as something that is not to be touched. They like the tax exemption status of the church donations.
By the way, if you ever are in L.A. around vote time, take note how the BIG 3 T.V. stations all show Democratic candidates flocking to a certain church, not too far from downtown. A very politically active church. And you can see a lot of what the candidates say from the pulpit about how you should vote, right on news on the big three T.V. stations. I can’t remember seeing any Republicans at this church, though there might have been a few. It appears to be a major strong hold of the Dems.
But if the O.P.’s argument got any traction, I guess this Democratic leaning church, and others like it, would be in the in danger of losing their tax exempt status, And this could be something the Democrats very much regret
Though I would say that having churches that are not tax exempt, might turn out great for the Republicans, as the mega church pastors could then speak freely about who they want you to vote for. And my what a large audience they have to share with, and do so, EVERY SINGLE WEEK. I could see these churches all posting voter guides on their beautiful websites.
Whether a church is tax exempt or not — it will not affect my listening to a particular pastor, it will not affect donations (I don’t give for the write off), and it will likely not affect my vote, as I rely on Christian voting guides.
Shiva (Moderator)
May. 1st, 2011 at 12:59 am
Come to the South. EVERY Baptist church on every corner is politically active. And trust me, its republican.
However the point is, come after someones sacred cow, then that person will probably get his sacred cow attacked as well. I seriously doubt that any “left leaning” church being taxed will be regretted by anyone.
Mansfield Caruthers
May. 1st, 2011 at 1:40 am
Maybe true,
Tax the churches on the right, and these mega churches would be oh so free to speak their political mind, and of their preferred candidates, in manner you have never seen the likes of before, as the gloves would be officially off.
And think of that impact on a weekly basis, as their audience is HUGE.
cobbnek paine
May. 1st, 2011 at 5:37 am
In every town and city across this broad land the very best real estate is held by someplace of worship or another and the end times are coming, brother. They should be taxed out of existence because religion, especially Christianity is responsible for so much evil in the world. The mafia, for example.
Tom Degan
May. 1st, 2011 at 6:23 am
Wow. Corporate churches. Corporate religion. Corporate Jesus.
“Blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth.”
Did you ever notice how so many of these people are so obsessed with the Ten Commandments? And yest they never – EVER – refer to the Sermon on the Mount even in passing? How would this be?
Could it be that the words of Jesus of Nazareth are totally at odds with the agenda of the modern-day conservative movement?
It’s something to ponder. It really is.
www.tomdegan.blogspot.com
Tom Degan
Goshen, NY
ScottS
May. 1st, 2011 at 7:34 am
“The First Amendment does not specifically guarantee the tax exemption right either, though lawyers for churches have made the argument that it is implied or intended.”
And yet the implication of “separation of church and State” is ignored……
Anne
May. 1st, 2011 at 8:35 am
So, they have been in violation for years, and nothing has ever been said or done before. Years ago, I saw a shirt with a slogan that aptly describes the religious right: The Moral Majority Is Neither.
drsolo
May. 1st, 2011 at 11:38 am
I dont attend church, but I have never understood why a person would sit there and listen to political sermons without standing up and challenging the minister. They say they walk out, but why not stand and simply say “the tax exemption of this church is based on religion staying out of politics, you are threatening that exemption with your words”. And tape the blah, blah so it can be proved.
Challenging tax status is long overdue.
Consuelo
May. 1st, 2011 at 12:05 pm
Since these churches outwardly pay and play in politics then if we tax them or start a movement to expose these churches and sue them we could clean up our deficit. I have always thought that maybe the common sense atheist will be the saved ones just through their non-bigoted and pro-all people. I think they give more than take. they don’t preach death,fear,prejudice,hate,etc. I am not saying that all atheist are good but it sure beats the other choices. they sure don’t to seem to worry about women’s reproductive rights. I vote pro-it’s none of your business what women do or think. I am so sick of this.
Reynardine
May. 1st, 2011 at 12:05 pm
What?? You think they’re not doing it now?? At least they wouldn’t be doing it on our dime!
Mansfield Caruthers
May. 1st, 2011 at 3:11 pm
Hi Reynardine,
As I said, I get much of my “How To Vote Info” from on-line voter guides and my libertarian newspaper, of which neither are tied to a church. So taking away tax exempt status, would not affect how I vote. And I don’t even bother to write off my donations anyway.
There may be some that would stop giving, if they couldn’t write off their donations. But there likely would be many who would continue to give to the church.
The church would not cease to exist in America — no matter how much some here despise the idea of a person standing at a pulpit, and talking of how God can change their life.
Reynardine
May. 1st, 2011 at 8:36 pm
I don’t care if someone in the Church of the Great Doorknob preaches Doorknobism to the world, and I don’t care if Doorknobites donate their time and resources to proselytising to the world, but if they are using the pulpit to tell their parishioners to vote for the Doorknobite candidate to public office, they are no longer a religion but a party, and we, the public, are no longer obliged to support them on the public dime, which in no way infringes on your right to worship whatever Doorknob you choose. Got that, Manny?
Mansfield Caruthers
May. 2nd, 2011 at 1:45 am
Maybe it’s time all 501(c) groups get off the dime. Maybe it is time they all open their books, Planned Parenthood included.
From what I read, looks like some unions may be on the dime too!
So yeah, maybe we should stop subsidizing every group or organization, whether with a Republican, Democratic or even with no slant at all. And as someone more along the lines of small government, I think that might be a real good thing.
Back to basics. Less, little or no exemptions. No subsidies.
So what you think Renny?
Reynardine
May. 1st, 2011 at 12:12 pm
The foregoing was supposed to post to Mansfield Carruthers. No, Shiva, I was not trying to type this with my dense German/ Bulgarian/ Czech/ Limburger/ fractionally Turkish/ Spanish skull!
vvvola35
May. 1st, 2011 at 12:16 pm
I say tax them all. Why should my taxes be higher to pay for their ignorance?
Reynardine
May. 1st, 2011 at 12:24 pm
And my android just managed to crack the toilet tank. Happy Mayday!
nancy
May. 1st, 2011 at 5:57 pm
How about mega-churches hosting town-hall meetings where all questions are pre-screened and arrests are made for asking about the uncomfortable truth– that Republicans are proposing to privatize Medicare? Radio journalist, Nicole Sandler was arrested and detained for 17 hours for posing that question to
Florida congressman, Allen West. Some reporting here . If these churches are used as town hall meeting sites with no obligation to allow free speech, because they are private spaces, then we’re in for a world of hurt.
Mansfield Caruthers
May. 1st, 2011 at 6:29 pm
And what is to prevent Democrats meeting at their union hall or rented hall, to talk one sided?! Nothing.
A pastor is FREE to speak at the church or rented hall, as the pastor wants.
A union member is FREE to speak at their hall, as they want.
Both are FREE speech.
And if you don’t agree with the pastors teachings, then you are FREE to go elsewhere, and even start your own church or denomination.
Shiva (Moderator)
May. 1st, 2011 at 6:48 pm
A pastor is not allowed to take political sides from the pulpit. That is the agreement for not being taxed.
nancy
May. 1st, 2011 at 7:51 pm
What are you talking about? Do you really think Democrats would call in the police to arrest a dissenter at a town hall meeting, no matter the location? This isn’t about pastoral teachings. It’s about venues, where non-profit status is granted because of the presumed non-political nature of the primary endeavor. Once a church becomes politicized, it should lose its non-profit status. Separation of church and state is a primary plank in our country that is losing its respect and footing by the minute.
Mansfield Caruthers
May. 1st, 2011 at 8:50 pm
Do I think union members would allow the opposite side to try and take over a meeting of theirs?! Of course they wouldn’t. May not even wait for police to show up either.
The churches I’ve been to, could be as many as 100, hard to say, but I can’t remember any pastors saying from the pulpit, “vote for this person”. And I’ve never seen any of those churches handing out voter guides. But churches do have freedom to speak about issues.
Shiva (Moderator)
May. 1st, 2011 at 8:58 pm
they can speak about issues, just not take sides.
Much like the catholic church took the sides of the illegals and should have lost their exempt status
Mansfield Caruthers
May. 1st, 2011 at 9:05 pm
Many churches speak of abortion and how it is not according to Gods word. I believe that is taking sides.
No one is going to stop them from doing that.
Shiva (Moderator)
May. 1st, 2011 at 9:25 pm
Nonsense. Of course they can talk about it. They just cant say only vote for those who are against abortion
Mansfield Caruthers
May. 1st, 2011 at 9:35 pm
Like I said, they are free to talk of issues and they take sides on the issues, such as I mentioned with abortion.
And as I also said previously, I’ve never heard any say “vote for this person”.
So you are saying nonsense to what ?
Shiva (Moderator)
May. 1st, 2011 at 9:38 pm
I am saying nonsense they can talk about it, they just cant tell people who to vote for concerning it. If they do they can lose their tax exempt status. Is this so hard for you to understand?
Come to the bible belt and go to a baptist church where they still preach Obama ia muslim
Mansfield Caruthers
May. 1st, 2011 at 9:41 pm
Okay, you are saying nonsense to a statement you made.
Got it.
Shiva (Moderator)
May. 1st, 2011 at 9:45 pm
See ya
Joe Murphy
May. 1st, 2011 at 8:16 pm
Hi,
I’d like to agree with what you’re saying, but… do you have any supporting information about these mega-churches, how many people are members, and how political they actually are?
Thanks,
Joe
Jason Easley
May. 1st, 2011 at 8:50 pm
Joe,
Here are a couple of links you may want to check out:
www2.ku.edu/~geography/Do...
and especially:
conferencias.iscte.pt/vie...
nancy
May. 1st, 2011 at 9:07 pm
Joe–I’m not sure that the make-up of the mega-church congregation is the point. The town-hall location is–a “town hall” venue followed by speech suppression is the point. If churches open their doors to “town hall” presentations, then they must become places of public debate. If they are not, then the definition of “town hall meeting” changes. And that’s the concern. I suspect we will see more and more of this as a way of closing off debate. And in a somewhat unaccountable and publicly “unassailable” way. Who’s going to question that a church has the right to close its doors to “trouble”? After all, they are trying to “host” and promote the public interest. But this is a way of cleanly censoring debate, by giving suppression the church’s imprimatur.
Malia Litman
May. 6th, 2011 at 7:09 pm
Great piece Sarah! Somebody posted it today on my blog, so I hope you get a lot of readers. It’s clear that politicians are violating the 503c3 provisions and giving “charitable” presentations that are political advertisements. Thanks for your insight. Malia Litman