Glenn Beck: The Mormon Wolf Preying on the Evangelical Sheep

First things first. Mormons are not Evangelical Christians. Glenn Beck is a Mormon. Glenn Beck attempts to move in the world of Evangelical Christianity and even adopts the narrative to put himself in a position to benefit from it.

But what Mormons believe have nothing in common with what Evangelical Christians believe.

I used to be a Mormon. I know what Mormons believe. And it’s not compatible with what mainstream or Evangelical Christians believe.

Don’t get me wrong. The Mormons I met were nice people. The girls were pretty in their dresses, the men friendly and outgoing, and all of them welcoming to a new convert.

Then the women went into their little room to do their thing while the men, all holding the Melchizedek priesthood, went into theirs. Without their wives.

It was disconcerting to say the least. It wasn’t that women were told to be silent and stay at the back of the room. They weren’t allowed into the room at all.

I know a few Evangelical women. I don’t know any of them who would be content with this relegation to inconsequentiality.

Nor is Jesus the end all of Mormonism. Evangelical Christianity is all about Jesus. The Catholics have Virgin Mary, and Jews have YHWH, but Evangelicals are all about Jesus and the Holy Spirit.

You see, Mormonism is not really monotheism. Many Christians, as it happens, are not strict monotheists. I know Evangelicals who accept that other gods exist but relegate them to second-class status. This, much to their heated denials, actually makes them polytheists.

But not only are the Mormons NOT monotheists, but they say you can be a god too.

You see, the gods are – were – just people like you and me, but through a life of righteousness they ascended into heaven. They did not sit next to the Lord Almighty. They became Lord Almighties. They became gods in their own right and ruled over other worlds.

When they told me this I was astounded. I had never expected that, of all things.

I asked, “Why did you keep this from me?”

They answered, “It would have been putting the dessert before the meat.”

It also sent me running for the hills. Never looked back. Bishop, I’m done.

Easier in than out, but I finally got it done and was much the wiser.

And yes, I turned down the chance to be a god.

Evangelical Christians seem content with Mormon polytheism when it serves their ends, like with Proposition 8 in California, which was largely an “out of town job” by Mormons and Mormon money. You can overlook the odd god here and there if the money is right.

But Glenn isn’t one of them. He never will be. He pretends to be. He talks the talk. But he can’t walk the walk, not and be true to his beliefs, and we have to give him the benefit of the doubt there.

You see, the Holy Spirit had nothing to do with Jesus’ birth, according to Mormon theology. You simply cannot imagine Evangelical Christianity without the Holy Spirit.

What the two groups often have in common is hate of the constructed other. Gays, lesbians, atheists, pagans, feminists, secular humanists, etc. All the people Jerry Falwell blamed for 9/11. The Religious Right’s “usual suspects.”

Some Christians are worried about corruption creeping into their religion. This was a fear voiced by John. Read his first letter, 2:9-11, where he warns of those who “run ahead” – in other words, people who preach a progressive doctrine, for these teachings have no part in God. Some then, see Mormonism in this light, just as Catholics see Protestants this way and Protestants see Catholics.

It’s really quite a mess, so when you hear about a “moral majority” or a “religious right” you have to remember that these people represent a minority of voters. Their talk gives them an image of power that is all out of proportion to their numbers. So does their money.

They are not a majority. They do not represent the average American. Many mainstream Christians, if they walked into a Pentecostal service, would not recognize the participants as Christians. They would flee in terror. Pentecostals visiting a run-of-the-mill such as that I grew up in would be shocked by the apparent absence of the “Holy Spirit.”

beck chalkboard Glenn Beck is a Mormon in evangelical clothing who has co-opted the Christian narrative for his own purposes. He is preaching what he obviously does not, and cannot believe given his Mormonism. Are mainstream Christians aware of this disconnect between Beck and his message? This has been noticed by some on the Religious Right. Some, but not enough.

Now the real problem comes in when Glenn Beck questions President Obama’s Christianity. As should be obvious from the above, if the Nicene Creed defines Christianity then Beck himself is no Christian, and is far from entitled to question the President’s religious credentials.

But that is exactly what Beck has been doing. Beck says of President Obama’s Christianity that it is a “perversion of the gospel of Jesus Christ.”

This from a man who thinks the Holy Spirit had nothing to do with Jesus’ birth, who thinks Jesus was not even divine.

Most mainstream Christian would, I am sure, if aware of this, be aghast at Beck’s words.

Beck has co-opted the Christian narrative for his own purposes. He is preaching what he obviously does not, and cannot believe given his Mormonism.

Are mainstream Christians aware of this disconnect between Beck and his message? This has been noticed by some on the Religious Right. Some, but not enough.

On Tuesday night Beck said, “The president apparently has a deeply held belief that his salvation cannot come without a collective salvation. I don’t know what that is,” he continued, “other than it’s not Muslim, it’s not Christian. It’s a perversion of the gospel of Jesus Christ as most Christians know it.”

As are Beck’s beliefs about Jesus Christ, if only most Christians knew it.

If not, they should wake up, because they’re being led along a primrose path by a man who by their own understanding of such things is spreading a false gospel.

160 Replies to “Glenn Beck: The Mormon Wolf Preying on the Evangelical Sheep”

  1. I think Mormonism as best I have read is more of a human repressing land owning religion than a “religion”.

    Nor do I think Beck is a practicing Mormon which I think is the gist of your article. He is pathetic in measuring others against his own false religious ideals. Which he does for political values and not religious values at all.

    What would be nice would be churches standing up and saying that Beck does not represent anything that they represent. But I think that they are afraid too, of negative press.

  2. But yes, it’s entirely possible that Beck is not a practicing Mormon, but that is not what the Mormon Church says, or his video he made for them says. It’s impossible to get inside the head of people who so blatantly opportunistic (Palin is another one). It’s quite possible that a lot of the Evangelical or Pentecostal Christians following Beck are not really practicing Christians either.

    My main point stands, however, that you have a guy who arguably has a very non-“Christian” view of Jesus criticizing a Christian’s view of Jesus, and whatever he actually believes, pretending to be something he is not.

  3. I just don’t see how these people can claim to care about – live for – the word of Jesus as their evangelical church preaches it and then follow Beck.

    Do they turn it off and on or do they just not know?

    Your experience as Mormon was very enlightening. I’m reminded of Beck’s disdain for the idea that he would run with Palin on a 2012 ticket. He made some comment about her being in the kitchen, I believe.

  4. He is a practicing Mormon and Utah LOVES, loves, loves him. He has become their National voice…their own Mormon superstar. They think he maybe just the man to fulfill the Mormon prophecy (that many believe) that a Mormon will rise up and save America and the Constitution, which is tattered and torn. Just watch how fast Beck with throw Palin under the bus in 2012 and support Mitt. Beck is just setting the stage.

    People, and Christian’s, should pay attention. Beck’s sermon’s have a lot more to do with his attempt to return this country to what he believes is God’s desire………….A Mormon America.

  5. We mormons do believe in the Divinity of Jesus. We also believe that Mary was a virgin when Jesus was born, and that it was a micracle made by the Holy Ghost. Please stop the lies about Mormonism. Carl

  6. What you believe is that Native Americans created an Egyptian tablet and when placed in a magic hat by a certain man he could see the voice of God through the hieroglyphs on the tablet. Up until the 90s, you also believed that your prophet spoke to an angle who took the form of a talking salamander. South Park summed up what you believe in the best “Dumb dumb dumb dumb dumb”. One last thing up until the year 2000 you racist religon would not allow an person of color not even native Americans to join.

  7. He used to be a Mormon. He’s not lying about Mormons. Why would you try to slander what he’s imparting?

  8. I am Mormon and I like Beck most of the time, but wince sometimes. You have listed some facts of Mormon doctrine and twisted others. For example Women are held in the highest regard in the church. There is no compulsion, dominance or suppression of women that is part of the doctrine. The world is so preoccupied with the appearance of equality they have forgotten that women and men have different needs. There is a belief in the god given difference in women and men though and that both have specific purposes to fulfill. Thus one in 3 meetings on Sunday is gender driven. Women teach and nurture and men protect and provide. However, there are also classes in the other hour that are age based. Serving the needs of people in different parts of life.
    There are scriptures that say it is only the women and the man together than can reach the highest glory. They also say that women should be honored and their vurtue protected. We get so lost in the pretense an sophistry of equality we at times we forget what god himself structured for us to succeed.


  9. By the way I work for a Catholic company, and have met Baptists, Lutherans, and others in joint humanitarian efforts. There is much more in common between Mormons and the rest of Christianity than not. In fact the belief that MOrmons are the only ones who will be saved, even held by some Mormons is incorrect according to Mormon doctrine. Men and women will be saved by their faith and obedience through the atonement of Christ. Mormons simply believe that they like the Israelite tribe of Levi have the restored preisthood to make ordinances of baptism eternal.

  10. Wow. I know only one Mormon but they never talk about their beliefs except to say there are different kinds or levels of Mormonism. So her point was that she took chastity vow and doesn’t smoke or drink but they aren’t polygymists though her relatives are. I just don’t see how that blends w Christians or even average people. But no matter what Glenn doesn’t believe in social justice so why is he talking about civil rights?

  11. The Testimony of the Apostles: “He was the Firstborn of the Father, the Only Begotten Son in the flesh, the Redeemer of the world. ” In the Mormon “Book of Moses,” Satan and Jesus both want to be chosen to take a body of flesh in order to become the redeemer; Jesus is chosen by God. Jesus’ spirit is then given a body through the Virgin Birth to Mary in Bethlehem. Jesus is the only begotten son in the flesh, but not the only son. And to make things clear, all humans are considered to be spirit sons of God. So if Jesus becomes a god after resurrection, all well and fine – all humans can do that according to Mormon doctrine. But while he was in his mortal body he was not a god. He was a mortal.

    I would add as well that Bruce McConkie, who was a member of the Quorum of Twelve Apostles, wrote that,

    “Christ was begotten by an immortal Father in the same way that mortal men are begotten by mortal fathers.” (Mormon Doctrine, 1966, p. 547)

    In other words, to make it happen, God had sex with Mary.

    And yes, some Mormons insist in a virgin birth, though technically if God had sex with Mary, virginity went out the door, not to be too crass about it.

    But I personally believe that to insist on Jesus’ divinity is to be disingenuous since that’s something everyone can be.

    For the record, there is no trinity in Mormonism.

    I am not belittling or insulting Mormonism. People have a right to believe what they believe. But Glenn Beck is pretending to be something he is not. Christians have a right to know that.

  12. Oh whatever.

    Mormon men and women both attend the first hour of Sunday services – Sacrament Meeting together.

    Then they attend the second hour of Sunday services – usually scripture study classes together.

    Then the men have their class in the third hour and women have theirs.

    And this is an issue why – exactly?

  13. And we’re just as monotheist as any other Christians.

    You guys made “One God” out of three beings.

    We took the same logic and made “One God” out of more beings than that.

    Not much of a difference, is it?

    Final point – most Mormons you ask will tell you that Jesus Christ was conceived within Mary by the Holy Spirit. Very few of them believe in the old 1800s notion that God the Father somehow had intimate relations with Mary.

    Evangelicals just bring these old defunct doctrines up as a scare tactic.

  14. I am not to sure I would want to follow a religion whose founder stuck his head in a hat to see the word of god or who carried a Jupiter Talisman in his pocket at all times which is an object of the occult. Not not to mention the 30 plus wives and of course the fact that he was supposedly a prophet whose prophecies did not come true. Doesn’t the Bible say something about a prophet having to have a 100 percent accuracy rate in order to be seen as a prophet of god? And Mormons keep changing the Book of Mormon to make it more accurate after the fact. It has that cult feel about it.

  15. People who used to be mormons lie about mormons all the time. As a mormon myself, let me tell you that every part of Carl’s post is absolutely correct.

  16. For accurate information about The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints visit their official websites, or

  17. There are so many problems with this post. I don’t know where to begin.

    Never trust an ex-mormon when they are bashing mormonism. This guy makes it sound like the men have some sort of secret meeting at church. This is far from the truth. Men and women meet together for a few meetings and then have 1 separate meeting. It isn’t secret, it’s just another way to divide classes so that you can discuss things that you care about. It isn’t uncommon for a woman to participate in the men’s meeting or for a man to participate in the women’s meeting.

    “As should be obvious from the above, if the Nicene Creed defines Christianity then Beck himself is no Christian, and is far from entitled to question the President’s religious credentials.”

    The Nicene Creed does not define Christianity. If this were the case, *most* Christian churches would not actually be Christian. Even Catholicism is starting to get away from it.

    “This from a man who thinks the Holy Spirit had nothing to do with Jesus’ birth, who thinks Jesus was not even divine.”

    Ok, now you’re just making stuff up. I’m starting to doubt that you were EVER a mormon. No part of that sentence was factual in any way. Most of the rest of your post is based on this sentence, so it’s safe to ignore it.

  18. The book Mormon Doctrine is not official mormon doctrine.

    That being said, you’re still intentionally misunderstanding what is being said in that quote. Nowhere does it imply that they had sex. What it’s saying is that Jesus was actually the son of God. His DNA. Do you really think that they were trying to explain how that scientifically happened?

    “But I personally believe that to insist on Jesus’ divinity is to be disingenuous since that’s something everyone can be.”

    Yes, but not at the current moment. We aren’t living in the future. We need Christ’s divinity to get to that point. And I don’t understand why you were so turned off by the fact that mormons believe that we can become Gods. To me it makes perfect sense. Of course God would want us to become like him. How boring would it be if our eternal potential is limited to only a little more than what we have now? There will come a day when God won’t need us to establish his kingdom. It’ll be established. He’ll want us to continue to progress.

    And since you’re in the comment section, care to explain this one? :

    “This from a man who thinks the Holy Spirit had nothing to do with Jesus’ birth, who thinks Jesus was not even divine.”

    Nothing about that is true. Please point me to any piece of official church doctrine that says any of that. An apostle allegedly saying something is not doctrine. They aren’t perfect, and they are misquoted *all the time* (especially back in the day).

  19. Social justice is not equivalent to civil rights because the “nuance spectrum” of “social justice” has for many been trimmed to a code word for coercive wealth redistribution through entitlement programs. Whereas civil rights, in the conservative lexicon, is a broader term, and has more to do with the natural rights of the individual. Equal treatment under the law does not presuppose or require equal economic outcomes.

  20. That’s a useful argument, Berto, but neither compelling nor convincing. I am not attacking Mormonism, and have incentive to do so. My purpose is merely to point out the differences between Mormonism and Evangelical Christianity. I didn’t even blame the Mormon missionaries for lying to me about Mormon doctrine and belief.

  21. As opposed to following a guy who spit in the dirt and smeared the mud on peoples eyes to help them see?

    And Deuteronomy does not say you have to have a 100% accuracy rate to be a prophet. It merely says not to follow a prophet who turns out to be wrong in his “thus saith the Lord” statements.

    Which does not describe Joseph Smith. Most of the so-called “false prophecies” that Evangelical critics point to Joseph Smith making, weren’t even prophecies to begin with (like speculations about whether the moon was inhabited – a common fancy of the 1800s among many intelligent men), or were simply conditional promises whose conditions were not met (like statements about temples in Missouri).

    As far as corrections to the Book of Mormon – the vast majority of them are just spelling and grammar corrections of no doctrinal or theological significance whatsoever.

    If you want to play this game, the BIBLE has vastly more changes and corrections in it than the Book of Mormon.

  22. Dan, folks back in the 19th and early 20th century thought they were doing women a service by putting them on pedestals and shielding them from politics and such…women didn’t necessary feel tht way, so while you may view women that way and feel segregating them in church is just fine, I didn’t. I was offended and bothered by families being split up to worship. Again, you don’t see this in “mainstream” Christianity.

    And I am not intentionally distorting anything. I am speaking from my own experiences in the Mormon church. I could write about experiences in a Pentecostal church and no doubt get some of the same reactions from Pentecostals. That does not invalidate my observations.

  23. No one said it was an issue, Seth. And there were no women meeting with men in the services I went to. It was men here, women there.

    Everyone seems to be missing the point that there are differences between Mormon and “mainstream” Christianity and that Glenn Beck is guilty of pretending these differences don’t exist. It doesn’t bother you that he is pretending to be an Evangelical Christian?

  24. Read the article. I pointed out that many Christians are not actually monotheists.

    As for sexual relations, tell that to McConkie. He was the apostle, not me. Aren’t we supposed to trust his godly insights?

    Clearly, as in any religion, there are variances in point of view and belief. All this talk does is prove that.

  25. I almost never completely trust what “exes” have to say about their former religion(s).

    We get a lot of ex-Evangelicals/Catholics/Lutherans/whatever in the LDS Church too. Left their former religion to become Mormon. And often they are willing to tell their fellow Mormons why their previous religion was deficient in some way or other (presumably to score points with their new community).

    But it’s very prejudiced and one-sided opinion in most cases.

    The motivation of the “ex” is to justify his previous divorce and make himself look like the good guy. You have to feel like you made the right choice if severing ties. Almost everything you think about your ex-religion is crafted with that justifying motive in mind.

    So you tend to get a very one-sided, negative-only kind of explanation from exes.

    Just like people who went through a bad divorce.

    I almost never take what an angry ex-wife/husband has to say about their former spouse seriously.

    I don’t know why it should be any different with religion.

  26. Ah yes – McConkie.

    To hear Evangelicals talk, you’d think he was the ONLY apostle we ever had, and that everything he wrote (including his college history 101 notes) was on equal footing with the holy scriptures.

    News Flash – The book “Mormon Doctrine” (authored by McConkie) is not scripture. It’s just a book of scripture commentary that was really popular for a lot of Mormons at one time, but is now out of print.

  27. Yes, actually. It does bother me.

    Some Mormons do have the misguided impulse to limit the Restored Gospel to fringe right-wing political groups. As a Mormon Democrat, Glenn Beck bothers me quite a bit.

    And there are huge differences between Mormonism and Nicene Christianity.

    They just aren’t the differences you are thinking of.

  28. The only person who is lying here is you. You actually claimed that mormons don’t believe in the divinity of Jesus. Do you have any idea how outrageous that is? It isn’t even worth pointing to a source. It’s all over ALL of official church doctrine. It’s even in the NAME of the church.

    And I have a hard time believing that missionaries lied to you about Mormon doctrine and belief.

  29. Carl:
    Do you also believe that Jesus was once a mortal man who worked himself up to being a god? Do you believe that Jesus had a physical mother? Do you believe that the Holy Ghost has a physical body of flesh and bone? Do you believe that Holy Father is one god among many?
    Can you show me where the current doctrine of your church is located?

  30. And we don’t get just the opposite “sugar coated” “milk before meat” rendition of Mormonism from you faithful, who must justify why you are still members?

  31. Well, let’s see–I don’t recall the “guy” who spit in the dirt being convicted of being a grifter of the first order. Or having 30+ wives, some who were already married!

    It’s also interesting that you would quote the Bible, a book you believe to be incorrectly translated. Tell me, how do you know the quote you cite was correctly translated?

    The fact that you turn to revisionism to defend JS’s many false prophesies is not surprising either, coming from a church that has practiced this sleight of hand for over 100 years. How else to explain away all the embarrassing doctrinal pronouncements from a bunch of old men who have no more insight into the mind of God than your average citizen.

    As to the corrections to the Book of Mormon, your statement that the vast majority have been insignificant does not change the fact that it only takes ONE significant change to discredit the whole book. I will cite a few significant changes if you wish. This being said, the Book of Mormon contains virtually NO Mormon doctrine! We won’t go into that messy business about the Lamanites.

    There are many almost 2000 year old Biblical manuscripts that match word for word our Bible of today. While we’re on this subject, one can actually go and find the places named in the Bible. Could you kindly tell me where to go to find even ONE place named in the Book of Mormon?

    Let’s see–should we trundle off to New York? Or maybe we should try Central or South America? Maybe you could show me just ONE piece of archaeological evidence of the happenings in your book (real ones-not the many fakes).

  32. Try the Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants, Pearl of Great Price, and the Bible.

    For further elaboration and details, feel free to ask.

  33. Funny, I don’t recall Joseph being convicted of anything either.

    And yes, I know exactly which incident you are thinking of.

    Critics of the LDS Church misread the county court records from those proceedings.

    Joseph Smith was arraigned, not convicted.

    And at any rate, are you saying Jesus was never accused of anything untoward in his ministry?

    What I am doing is not revisionism, since no one in the LDS Church considered many of the prophecies you are talking about prophecies to begin with.

    As for “significant” errors in the Book of Mormon, go ahead and name one for me.

    The lack of archeology is not surprising since the Book of Mormon never designates a location anyway. So we don’t really know exactly were to look. But your line of questioning is unclear in any case. What would you accept as sufficient proof of the Book of Mormon?

    As it so happens, this whole question of archeological proof is silly anyway – since archeology does not establish faith claims.

    Can you show me any archeological evidence that Moses parted the Red Sea?

    How about Jesus walking on water? Feeding the multitudes? How about the resurrection? Any archeological proof of that?

    Can you provide me with ANY Christian faith claims established by archeology?


    Then I fail to see why Mormons should be all that fussed about not having such apparently worthless and ineffective evidence in our arsenal.

    It certainly hasn’t done anything to strengthen your position – why would it be of any more use to me?

  34. Mormons are expected to study Mormon history, scripture, and theology on their own time and are repeatedly encouraged to do so by LDS leadership.

    The primary purpose of Sunday worship services is to participate together in the community of faithful and only secondarily to serve a schooling function. Almost every religion out there is full of people who are not knowledgeable about their own theology and doctrine. I think you’ll find – on average – that the Mormon population is actually better-informed of their own scripture, teachings, history, and theology than most Catholic or Protestant congregations.

    That said, the teaching at Sunday services stays at a superficial level usually. And this is unavoidable, given that many newbies are in attendance in most classes. So we have to stick to the basics.

    But if you relied on Sunday services for your entire religious education and never cracked a book outside of those Sunday services, and then got blindsided by stuff you’d never bothered to study before… then frankly, that’s your own fault.

  35. Funny, my experience with the Mormon faithful, especially the younger generation is that they appear to be quite ignorant of their religion’s history. I wish I had a nickel for every time I was called a liar for informing a member that JS had many wives–even women who were already married. I just refer them to I believe your church teaches only the “official” faith promoting history. Members may be encouraged to study, but only from church approved materials. Not exactly what you would call informed inquiry.

  36. OK, here are 4 for your consideration: 1Nephi 11:18, 11:21, 11:32, and 13:40. These are significant in that they go right to the heart of your doctrine of the Godhead. All of these verses had “the son of” or “son of ” added to the original 1831 version, changing a UNIFIED godhead to something else altogether. These changes were made in 1981!?

    Another interesting one, though not bearing on doctrine, but something else that calls much into question about how the book came about, is Mosiah 21:28 which was changed in the 1964 edition. Apparently someone discovered that according to BOM chronology, Benjamin who was the subject of the original verse, should have been long dead by this point in the story. What to do? Let’s just change dead Benjamin into Mosiah, who was alive at the time. Voila!!
    problem solved. What say you?

  37. Tim:

    I imagine you’d probably have somewhere between 5 and 20 cents. The fact that your statistical analysis consists of mainly the “younger generation” says a lot.

    There’s a lot of history to cover. 99% of mormons know that there was polygamy. How many christians know that polygamy was practiced in the Bible by faithful men of God? If I had a nickel for every time I got to inform a christian about that, I could become richer than you (I rarely inform them about that since it’s just childish most of the time, but I would start doing it).

  38. Sorry to burst your bubble on the JS trial, but a copy of the court records together with bills from the constable and the judge who tried JS exists. JS was arrested and tried–12 witnesses were called and he was convicted of using a seer stone to look into the ground for hidden treasure. Seer stone—sound familiar?

    The “prophesies” were certainly considered prophesies at the time they were uttered. I wonder what JS would say about your statement?

    There are place names and lands mentioned in the BOM–problem is we can’t seem to find any of them.

    With all due respect, your argument concerning physical evidence is absurd. Are you telling me that if someone comes up with the golden plates tomorrow, you would not point to them as proof positive that Mormonism is true? Maybe blind faith is purely a spiritual matter, but my kind of faith–informed faith considers all evidence. What is silly is your statement that physical evidence does not bolster faith. I think you are merely saying the only thing you can say knowing that you have nothing. I do know that your brethren at FARMS and FAIR would be proud of you for trying.

    Besides, you misunderstand my argument, I used the example of the lack of physical evidence as an additional example of the many problems with your religion. My point was that one can read about Jerusalem in the Bible and then go there and see it. I wonder where Zarahemla might be? Maybe we could saddle up a tapir and find it. Doesn’t that fact at least cause you to pause and think?

  39. Berto:

    Well, you must be a prophet and a seer also to look into your hat and “see” that my statement is exagerrated. My statement was not so much about polygamy as it was about your church teaching the brethren only faith promoting history.
    At least you didn’t attempt to draw a moral equivalency between Biblical polygamy and your church leaders practicing, concealing, and lying about it well into the 20th century.
    My seer stone tells me that 99% of Christians know about Biblical polygamy. How can you argue with that?

  40. Please show me a source that church leaders lied about it or concealed it. And I’d especially like a source that shows that it was in any way sanctioned by the leadership of the church to still practice it “well into the 20th century.”

    Yes, people did it. Perhaps they even held leadership positions (since you apparently know so much about the church, I assume you know that the vast majority of church leaders are normal members who volunteer without pay). Those who have practiced it since it was “banned” were and are all excommunicated when they are found out.

  41. You can read about Harmony, Pennsylvania in the Doctrine and Covenants and visit it today.

    Does that make Joseph Smith’s story true?

    Color me utterly unimpressed with the fact that your Bible lists a real place name in its text. The Illiad and the Odyssey talk about real places and real people too. Should I start worshiping Zeus?

    As for your cited textual changes to the Book of Mormon, all of them were actually made by Joseph Smith himself in later editions of his own work. Some of that work was only made available to the LDS Church in the 1980s, so the text was changed to reflect and clarify Joseph Smith’s original work. 2 Nephi 30:6 is an example of this. Along with 1_Ne. 11:18; 1_Ne. 11:21, 1_Ne. 11:32, and 1_Ne. 13:40. And then 1 Ne 20:1, Mosiah 21:28, and Ether 4:1.

    All of them reflect changes made to the text for clarification by Joseph Smith himself – only much later discovered by the LDS Church itself. So while this may LOOK to you like a recent addition by the modern LDS Church, it is really simply a return to the historical meaning of the text given to us by Joseph Smith.

    On the trial, I think you are operating on outdated material. We do have the court documents from Joseph Smith’s court hearing in 1826. We have five records of the 1826 trial. And these were published in eight documents.

    1. Apr. 9, 1831 – A W. Benton in Evangelical Magazine and Gospel Advocate

    2.Oct. 1835 – Oliver Cowdery in Latter-day Saints Messenger and Advocate

    3.1842 letter from Joel K. Noble (not published until 1977)

    4.Record torn from Judge Neely docket book by Miss Emily Pearsall (niece)
    * Feb. 1873 – Charles Marshall publishes in Frazer’s Magazine (London)
    * Apr. 1873 – Frazer’s article reprinted in Eclectic Magazine (N.Y.)
    * 1883 – Tuttle article in New Schaff-Herzog Encyclopedia of Religious Knowledge
    * Jan. 1886 – Christian Advocate vol. 2, no. 13 (Salt Lake City, UT)

    5. May 3, 1877 – W. D. Purple Chenango Union

    All five sources present a biased view of the events described, but the picture that emerges is that this was a pretrial hearing, not an actual trial. This is what we get from the documents torn from Judge Neeley’s docket book by his niece Emily Pearsall. They can’t be a court record at all for the following reasons:

    1. Misdemeanor trials were not recorded, only felony trials.
    2. No witness signatures—they were required in an official record.
    3. It appears to be a pretrial hearing.
    4. Pretrial hearings cannot deliver guilty verdicts.

    As for accounts of witness testimony, the different source documents available all contradict each other, and in many cases, have not been transmitted faithfully or truthfully. There is simply no basis to conclude Joseph Smith guilty of any criminal wrongdoing in 1826 under the laws of the land at that time.

    Your information appears to be outdated Tim. The discovery of the court documents you are talking about is not news to LDS scholars. They’ve already looked at them – and it was a pre-trial hearing that never went to trial. Not a trial and verdict itself.

  42. I am glad you asked. Let’s begin with the lying:

    Joseph Smith emphatically denied accusations linking him to polygamy. In 1838 he answered some questions for the Elder’s Journal. Question number seven was: “Do the Mormons believe in having more wives than one?” The answer was: “No, not at the same time” (Elder’s Journal, as cited in History of the Church, vol. 3, p. 28). Of course this was after he had lied to Emma about it.

    According to the History of the Church, on May 26, 1844, Joseph Smith absolutely denied the accusation that he was living in polygamy: “What a thing it is for a man to be accused of committing adultery, and having seven wives, when I can only find one. I am the same man, and as innocent as I was fourteen years ago; and I can prove them all perjurers” (vol. 6, p. 411).

    Mormon historian, Thomas G. Alexander, assistant professor of history at Brigham Young University, admitted that members of the Mormon church defied the law:

    “Some maintain that because Mormons were law abiding they gave up plural marriage after the Supreme Court declared the anti-polygamy acts constitutional. But long after the 1879 Reynolds decision, Church members brought to bar for sentencing told federal judges that the law of God was higher than the law of the land and deserved prior obedience. The Manifesto officially ending polygamy as Church practice was not issued until 1890, and excommunication for practicing plural marriage did not come until 1904” (Dialogue: A Journal of Mormon Thought, Summer 1966, p. 128).

    Presidents Heber J. Grant and Joseph F. Smith were both convicted well after the Manifesto for unlawful cohabitation. The evidence shows that the church simply moved the practice to Mexico to avoid the US laws, under the direction of Anthony W. Ivins–later to be a member of the First Presidency.

    If you would care to read the transcript of the Reed Smoot case which is readily available on the net, you will find much information about the leaders of the church and their schemes to conceal and practice polygamy after they themselves had “banned” the practice.

    Open your eyes, Berto and you will see.

  43. Geez; now I understand why I became a Pagan. This discussion is almost as interesting as listening to the Roman Catholics and the Orthodox discusss the cause of the Great Schism. I still feel we are arguing about faiths that were created out of expediency to meet the political and social needs of the time. There is too much in Christianity that has been borrowed from the myths and traditions of the ancient ways. This makes it all but impossible to validate the claims of either side…in other words, you’re gonna have to wait till you kick the bucket to find out , guys…

  44. To Oldsun….honestly, you’re really going to believe everything you have seen on television, ESPECIALLY Matt Stone and Trey Parker? Have you even read the Book of Mormon? Oh an one other thing, if the Mormon religion wouldn’t accept people of other races until 2000, then why have Mormon Missionaries been going over seas on missions since the 50’s?

  45. Women are held in such high regard that you can have TWELVE of ’em! Dang. Mormonism is a male-centric religion just like ALL other religions. The only thing that sets them truly apart is the “you can be gods too” thing, which does point to polytheism… does it not? Even polygamy is old hat—-> an early practice of Mormons. BTW, they believe in the Father the Son and the Holy Ghost. I stopped believing in ghosts when I was a kid. About the same time I walked out never to return.

  46. I am so thrilled that you would try to tell others what they believe… If it were not for my beliefs I would just tell you these words: Shut the heck up and listen! They should be the one to define themselves, you cannot and have no authority to say what Mormons believe…I am sorry for people with a small mind like you and the rest who think like you! You are pathetic and need to read more about Mormonism and be among them if you want to know them or what they believe, that is how I came to understand them…

  47. Come on Hrafnkell Haraldsson,

    If you have the gut to say that “there were no women meeting with men in the services you went to” you are a big fat liar and you were never a Mormon, at least you would say that in your baptism or the day you receive the Holy Ghost… or maybe in a church activity! Actually, Beck said on saturday that there are a 1000 points in which we differ especially in our theologies. but the fact of the matter is that we need to turn back to God or you can follow whoever you are following now! Hey Fella, you can reject Beck’s message that America needs to turn back to God for a solution or you can continue to follow the steps of your father: LIES, DECEPTION, Pornography, Dishonesty, Lack of Integrity, Greed, …the Devil and so forth… May God bless America and Glenn Beck, and May God have Mercy on you Mr. Hrafnkell Haraldsson.

  48. I respect what you are trying to do, but if you had been at the rally in Washington on Saturday as I was you would be ashamed of this post now.

    What Mr. Beck and his non-LDS associates are trying to do for this nation is commendable. He is restoring the faith tradition and religious undergirding that established the greatness we have seen in America.

    The fact is Glenn Beck has shown remarkable restraint concerning his Mormonism. I am sure he wold love to share his faith more openly, the way Huckebee gets to. He walks a razors edge trying not to irk someone. I stood 100 yards from the podium on the National Mall Saturday and watched Evangelical pastors raising their hands to God and shouting amens during Beck’s speech. When the Black Robe Brigade came on stage they nearly had a heart attack. It was amazing.

    Glenn Beck is hitting this out of the park.

    He is growing bolder in his religious themes and he is clear to make it known that it is NOT an issue of which church is right. We need to come together and get behind Beck’s message. We need to stop playing the tired game of divisive anti-Mormonism or whatever that plagues our culture. It’s an us vs. them mentality.

    The only way our churches are going to survive into the next generations is if we espouse Glenn Beck’s ideals and the mission he has declared in the last year. You would be a fool, and a tool of Satan, to stir up dirt on Beck’s faith now. You should be thanking Glenn Beck for his fight.

  49. Glenn Beck creates hatred and division in this country. How can he represent ANY religion?

    Are you guys that desperate for main stream acceptance that you will sell your souls out to a con artist like GLenn Beck because someone told you he will spread your beliefs?

  50. Glen Beck is out for money, power and fame. No church should accept someone like that. He should be excommunicated.

  51. That is a very dangerous statement to make. As a Christian I find it scary that people are just willing to accept Glenn Beck because he is talking about Jesus. He is not talking about the Jesus I believe in. He is not talking about Christian faith – he is talking about Mormon faith. These are two different things. I used to listen to him and was behind his message until I educated myself more on what Mormons believe and I will no longer listen or watch him.

  52. You are missing the point! It’s not about him being MORMON! It’s about how our countries value system has eroded and continues to do so while you are sitting on your duff and complaining about the truth. If you like the way GOD is being kicked out of our daily lives by a distorted view of the FEW, then keep on hating him with your petty arguments. I never heard a word that left his lips that condemned YOU. Dismiss the real message and you will dismiss the REALITY that is happening in our AMERICAN way of life, even as I am writing this message at this very moment. I am not a MORMON and I will never attach myself to any RELIGION! I will however, attach myself to the truth with JESUS CHRIST as my personal SAVIOUR. Trying praying without condeming. CONDEMNATION is GOD’s job!

  53. Seth:

    No, this was intended as a reply to Berto. I should have addressed it to him. Carrying on two separate discussions is tricky. I owe you a reply which is forthcoming. Had to travel today.

  54. Dan-I must agree with HH’s comments-any reading of history shows that men of ALL religions have been completely wrong about the ‘ role’ and abilities of women.
    ALL religions ,by definition being patriarchal,have totally gotten it wrong as to what feminine ‘need’ and capabilities actually are.If women had been idiotic and/or obedient enough to listen to all those religious experts with long beards,there would be NO women doctors,scientists,politicians,nobel winners,cops,C.E.O’s,etc,etc,etc.

  55. Seth:

    Thank you for your reply. Harmony, Penn? Excuse me, but the discussion was about the foundational document of each religion, not some after the fact compilation of doctrinal utterances, that, by the way, have also undergone extensive “editing” in later years. (check your own church historians). And no, it doesn’t prove JS’s story to be true. I’m afraid nothing can, if you know what I mean. By the way, to which one of his many stories would you be referring? What with all the different 1st vision accounts and such, it’s hard to know who is on first.

    I didn’t expect you to be impressed with anything concerning such a second-rate book as the Bible. As to the REAL place names in the Bible vs: NONE in the BOM, you continue to miss the point (I wonder why?). It’s merely one more small nail in the coffin of the truth claims of your religion.

    It’s good that you admit the truth that changes were made to the original text of the BOM. Though I would love to see any proof that it was JS who did the editing (please show me), the mere FACT that it was edited conclusively proves it NOT to be divinely inspired. The “most perfect book” was not so perfect after all, was it?

    We have only scratched the surface of the 3900+ changes that have been made to the BOM. Were they all made by JS and just recently discovered? Since you brought up the issue of grammatical errors, I wonder why God dictated in such an uneducated way? Did Mormon get bad grammar grades in school? Did the “Reformed Egyptian” lose something in the translation? Why did the “witnesses” insist that the printer not correct the atrocious spelling and grammar in the manuscript? What was the deal with those missing 114 pages? That reminds me of the Anthon Transcript—oh, and the Book of Abraham scroll. Whatever happened to those mummies from the traveling side show?

    As to JS’s conviction, if only felony trials were recorded, why were there records of a mere misdemeanor hearing? Why would they go to the trouble of keeping track of a small time hearing like this? Do you deny that JS made his early living as a money digger? Do you find it the least bit interesting that a very similar scenario was used by JS in the story of the plates? Conflicting witness testimony—that reminds me of –oh well, maybe a topic for later discussion. Congratulations on finding the FAIR website, by the way. Say hello to Brother Peterson for me.

  56. Ethan -surely your posting is meant to be humor ?
    Even Beck’s biggest fans know that he is an utter clown-I dont like Obama at all but I goddamn know that hes not remotely like a nazi and as a student of history I can also assure you that hes not within a million miles of being like Stalin-yet that idiot Beck continues this absurd comparison narrative-gimme a break.

  57. Wonderful post Tim but alas many people wish to defend a comforting lie rather than an uncomfortable truth and as a religious moderate one observation which I have about the BOM or any other ‘bible’ of the newer creeds -and it is this….surely even the existence of the book of Mormon strongly infers that it and it’s transcribers and adherents invariably believe that all of the previously extant Judao Christian ‘ holy’ boks are wildly inaccurate if not worse otherwise why the need for a completely ‘new’ book which is considered to be on par with the old and new testament ???

  58. So, are you saying that when God has a prophet speak or write, he does a form of mind-control to make sure there are no errors?

  59. You absolute correct!! I’m not hear to knock Mormon religion as I’m daughter of Mormon for the people who don’t know what that means my family is one of the early settlers that came across west on Wagon and worked on the railroad and hit the golden spike to mark east meet west. That is a different story. Yes, it wasn’t until the 1978 that Blacks could become priest or in higher position, so basically they were allowed to come worship but couldn’t hold higher position or enter the divine temple. Yes, Mormon’s did carry out mission, but it is a known fact that curse of Cain teachings were taught during these times. Again all factual as my family was born and raised in Salt Lake City, Utah. Thing have changed. Like many religious, organization there have been racism and discrimination. Younger generations don’t even know this history. The Mormon church has distance self from Cain curse and even denied it. The church has done alot of good things. Nevertheless, I can say that I was a very big fan of Mitt Romney’s Agenda

  60. Thomas Jefferson Wrote in the Virgina Statute for Religious Freedom “Truth is great, and will prevail if left to herself, that she is the proper and sufficient antagonist to error, and has nothing to fear from the conflict, unless by human interposition disarmed of her natural weapons free argument and debate, errors ceasing to be dangerous when it is permitted freely to contradict them.”

    Jefferson himself was criticized by Judeo-Christians at the time for his belief in Diesim, this made him no less a patriot and an American hero who belived in God and followed Jesus’ teachings even though he did not recognize the divinity of Jesus Christ.

    The fact that the founding principles of America, Mormonisim, and Beck have continued to move forward despite the endless and tireless evidence which both supports and contradicts is that Truth prevails.

    I judge all things for the fruit that they bear, as this is how Truth prevails when “left to herself”. Mormonisim , while it bears some scars by the failure and sins of men (like America and Beck), has been and is a positive force in America and throughout the world. Mormonisim promotes its members to have integrity, faith in Jesus Christ, and provide service to others.

    I am a proud member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. I know that Jesus is my lord and savior and that only through him can I be saved. I know he is the Son of God. I know this not only from what I have read, studied and learned, but through prayer, and specifically through his Holy Spirit, and finally by the fruit which it bears in my life, in my families life, and in the lives of others.

  61. The idea that people can only be ‘ saved ‘ through Jesus is laughable,insane and unfair too-what about all the billions of decent human beings who simply because of demographics and cultural identity have no access to Jesus and his message.
    Sir….you are an utter imbecile and how dare you think that you and your beliefs are in any way remotely superior to other human beings from different parts of the globe…

  62. Seth:

    Now you’ve gone and disappointed me when I was just getting warmed up. I’ll make you a deal–answer my questions from my previous post and I’ll be happy to answer yours.

  63. JRG:

    What would your bishop say if he knew you were on the evil internet bearing only an abridged testimony. Why did you leave out the part about Joseph Smith being a prophet of God or the part about the LDS church being the TRUE church of God? Where is your testimony of the inerrant, divinely inspired Book of Mormon? If you’re going to testify please give us the whole load. Thomas Jefferson wouldn’t have held back.

    Why only talk of the scars left by America and Beck? Why not start at the beginning and give us a more accurate picture of the scars of Mormonism. Why not tell us about the scars left by your 1st Prophet, seer, and revelator Joseph Smith? How about the travesty of Brigham Young’s 55 wives, some of whom were as young as 15, 16, or 17 years old?
    Maybe we should be hearing about the Mountain Meadows Massacre? How about something more recent like the very embarrassing case of the LDS prophet and top leadership buying forged documents from Mark Hofman? What about the church denying the priesthood to African Americans until a convenient “revelation” came along?

    I hope you don’t lose your temple recommend over this……

  64. I am secure in my beliefs, and you missed the point. Despite everything negative that can be said about Mormonisim they are a positive force for good throughout the world, and in the individual lives of its members. The truthfulness is self evident.

    I have read and studied extensively about Mark Hoffman (Robert Lindsey’s book was riveting), Polygamy, African Americans and the Priesthood, and the Mountain Meadow Massacre. Just as I have read and studied extensively about Slavery, Civil Rights, the Atom Bomb, and other scars in American history. Men are fallible.

    I still love America and believe in its founding principles and it is the greatest Country in the world. I also believe that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day saints contains the truth and the authority from God, as originally prescribed by Jesus Christ.

    Do other countries do good in the world, yes. Do other religions have truth and do righteous works, yes. Our church has never taught that truth its self is mutually exclusive.

    Do you know why Jefferson believed in Deism? I think you will find some interesting parallels to what inspired Joseph Smith.

    I know what I know because I do not rely wholy on what I read and study, my beliefs are based on a witness of God through his Holy Spirit.

    I testify of Jesus Christ as the Savior since the wolves in sheep’s clothing ilk of the world seem to want to distort our Christianity.

  65. To clarify the following: “Mormonisim , while it bears some scars by the failure and sins of men (like America and Beck)…” I meant to say (like America and Beck also bear scars of failure). In other words Mormonisim, America, and Glenn Beck all share in common the fact that in their respective histories there are failures that were perpetuated in and of them selves, and they are the mistakes of men.” This does not invalidate the underlying principles of their Truthful messages.

  66. JRG:

    I am glad that you are secure in your beliefs as I am in mine. With all due respect, I don’t believe I missed the point at all. I can understand that as a true believing Mormon, you believe your church to be a positive force for good throughout the world. Maybe I can help you understand why I believe your statement to be arguable in the micro-view and false in a macro sense.

    As one who has studied your religion, particularly its history, in some depth over a number of years, I have become aware of the considerable harm it has caused in the lives of its members as well as non-members. Your church professes to be about the family first and foremost, but it has also been a destroyer of families. Your religion sets up a class system within its ranks with the coveted temple recommend at its core.

    Permit me one small example that plays itself out countless times all over the world: Parents of children who do not happen to be Mormon are prevented from witnessing the temple marriages of their recommend holding sons or daughters. Oh yes, you will point out that the family can be together for something like a dedication or a reception, but that doesn’t change the fact that they are barred from THE event.

    There are many other negative individual effects caused by your church, but let’s turn for a moment to the bigger picture from the viewpoint of traditional Christianity as I see it. There is no doubt in my mind that your church has as one of its primary goals the “conversion” of people who are already believing Christians. I have heard the missionaries rather slick presentation which purports to only want to tell “the rest of the story”.

    From my perspective, your church is doing immeasurable harm to these converts by putting their true salvation in jeopardy (never mind all the children “born in the covenant” who will likely not be exposed to the true gospel truth). Add to this the non-believers who are taken in by your marketing and sales machine, and you have considerable harm being done. There are earthly good deeds and teaching of solid morals, but what is that if one’s ultimate salvation is lost?

    The one bright spot here is that in the total scheme of things, your church is still very small, even if one accepts your church’s inflated membership numbers. Your church’s truthfulness may be self-evident to you but it is not to me.

    I must differ with you on one other statement you made to the effect that your church has never made claims to having a superior truth. Does your church not claim to be God’s only true church on the face of the earth? Does it not consider its Book of Mormon to be superior to the Christian Bible? Does it not teach that the highest levels of Heaven are only attainable by worthy members of your religion? Does your church not teach that it has a living prophet on the earth at its head who has the authority to utter scripture? Does your church believe that its priesthood is superior to all others?

    I applaud your patriotism and your earnestness as I do many of your brethren whom I count as friends. I humbly await your response….

  67. Does our church have superior truth? There is no such thing, the truth is or is not. Is there more truth, yes.

    Truth can be found everywhere and this is a core tenant of our faith. Have you read the 13th Article of Faith?

    The claim that we are the only true church, does not mean that we have exclusivity to all truth. The church is true in that it is structured in the same manner of the primitive church as organized by Christ (See article of Faith 6).

    With respect to Mormon families again the truth speaks for its self. Members of the church who practice the doctrine of family prayer and family home evening are strong and united. Anyone who has had the pleasure of meeting a practicing Mormon family will discredit your claim.

    My wife’s family are non-members or non-practicing members. Did it divide our family because they could not attend our wedding ceremony? No. Just like any person of honor, they respected the sacredness of our temple, and enjoyed the spirit of the day the same as those who were inside the temple. There was no resentment.

    The evidence (or fruit) of Truth is only found when practiced. The confirmation of the Truth comes from the Holy Spirit of God. That is how I firmly know what I know.

    Strict adherence to the principles of Mormonism will bear good fruit.

  68. Lots of good and interesting debate. Most of the discussion has turned to “issues” in the Mormon church and its doctrine (which I’m kind of surprised no one has brought up the point about women not being able to get to the upper levels of heaven without an invitation from their husbands, thereby making marrying a Mormon extremely important to women because apparently God’s “role” for their gender doesn’t include getting into heaven on their own). But the original point was about Glenn Beck’s seduction of Evangelical Christians by “hiding” his real beliefs.

    That shouldn’t come as a surprise as Mormons have “hidden” their beliefs throughout their history. Specifically when it comes to promoting their message to new converts. It’s like an extreme form of dating where you’re not supposed to “let them see the crazy” on the first date. That comes later after you get them hooked. But amazingly, people don’t see Glenn Beck for the charlatan that he is. Preying on the fears of Americans he preaches “going back” to a time of faith and belief, on which this country was founded. But any reasonable person can see that our society is ever-evolving and it cannot “go back.” It can only continue to evolve and develop. Many of the things that our founding fathers believed in terms of faith has since been debunked by whatever church they belonged to.

    A poster had claimed that Beck’s message should not be discounted because of his “beliefs” because men are fallible. I agree. But how about we discount his message because it makes no sense, is based on fear, and has no actual specific points about moving forward in a positive way. THEN we can take a look at the fact that the message is coming from someone who believes in radical conspiracies and is obviously a clown.

    I am saddened by how we have turned into a country of extremes and have lost the ability to debate with logic. People like Beck have abandoned issues and logic and have instead turned to fear mongering to elicit the favor (along with the fame and wealth that goes with it) of those who are willing to listen and believe.

  69. Well, I think you are right on. After watching “Beck” for 6-10 times I thought he might be Mormon and did a web search. I was right. He has a web site that exposes this. However, I am not at all sure you are right in your evaluation of Obama’s Christianity or for that matter George Bush’s Christianity. Both claim to be Christian, but that does not make them Christian. I have heard, but not evaluated Glenn Beck’s claim that Obama’s former Pastor believed in Black Liberation Theology. If this is the case, and Obama follows this theology, Beck is right: Obama is not a Christian. However, except for the political poles that Momonism and Liberation theology tend to, conservative vs. liberal, the fundamental foundation for salvation is the same: works righteousness. To both Mormon and Liberation theology Christian truth is anchored in the good new of salvation from Christ, through Christ and to Christ, the gift of God the FAther in the power of the Holy Spirit to lost sinners, saved by grace.

  70. I only said that the SUBSTANTIVE content changes were ones made by Joseph Smith himself. The other numerous changes are mere spelling and grammar corrections and don’t bother me one bit. The Bible has even more issues in this department than the Book of Mormon does, if it comes to that.

    I never said the Bible was a second-rate book. I just don’t believe it is inerrant. Neither do I consider any book of scripture to be inerrant. But that doesn’t mean I do not treasure and value them. With you, it really appears to be all or nothing. Either you believe the Bible is absolutely flawless, or you believe it is a worthless piece of trash. No nuance whatsoever in your thinking or worldview.

    Your criticism of Joseph Smith’s bad grammar (common for someone of his background) is laughable.

    You ever looked at the source texts for the Bible?

    Try it sometime – there are typos, word mistakes, cross-outs, and such ALL OVER the source texts for the Bible. In some cases, the scribe accidentally missed entire paragraphs of text or entire sentences in copying things down.

    Are you going to be fair here and submit your own Bible to the kind of scrutiny you are subjecting the Book of Mormon to?

    As for providing proof of Joseph doing the Book of Mormon changes himself, Mormon scholar Royal Skousen has done extensive work in tracking the editing history of the Book of Mormon text. I would suggest reading his work. He is currently one of the top historians out there of textual history of the Book of Mormon – I think you can find his recent comprehensive book on the subject on Amazon right now.

    As for the different First Vision accounts – so what? They don’t really contradict each other in any significant way. No more than Paul’s differing accounts of his vision on the road to Damascus. People remember things differently at different times in their lives, and will relate different selections, with different emphases, for different audiences. But the core message hasn’t changed.

    Finally, Joseph earned some side income helping people look for treasure via supernatural means. It was a common belief in frontier America at the time. Sometimes the practitioners of such magic were frauds and opportunists. Other times they were honest and respected members of the community who honestly thought they had the gift and tried to use it honorably. Joseph Smith falls in the latter camp. He never made much money at this and was always engaged in other manual labor as a farm worker and hired hand. In fact, I’ll wager he worked about 5 times harder each day than most of the people reading this comment.

    He conducted himself with honor in his employment – groundless character assassination attempts aside.

    Tim, your objections are becoming more and more disorganized and scatter-shot. You appear to be unable to stay on a topic for long. As soon as I address one point, you hurriedly hustle the readers along to the next point. You have not adequately responded to the refutations I have made. It seems your common tactic is – whenever I make a point – to change the subject and hope nobody notices.

    So what now? Are you going to ignore everything I’ve said so far, and simply try to change the subject to something like the Book of Abraham, or polygamy? That would certainly fit your pattern so far: if an argument isn’t working – change the subject!

  71. JRG:

    I’m beginning to see a pattern here with you “Defenders of the Mormon Church”. You all seem to be incapable of answering a direct question. The questions I asked in my previous post to you require a simple “yes” or “no” answer, but of course you are free to expand and explain your answer as you wish. As an aid to you, I am going to re-state my unanswered questions concerning your church here:

    Does it consider its Book of Mormon to be superior to the Christian Bible? Does it teach that the highest levels of Heaven are only attainable by worthy members of your religion? Does your church teach that it has a living prophet on the earth at its head who has the authority to utter scripture? Does your church believe that its priesthood is superior to all others?

    I believe the answer to each of these questions is yes. Please correct me if I am not speaking the truth.

    I am well acquainted with your articles of faith. I know who wrote them, under what circumstances they were written, in which book of your “scripture” they are contained (The Pearl of Great Price), and I know one other interesting fact these articles have in common with all the other Mormon scripture—-they were later revised.

    Speaking of the PGP, maybe we should also discuss one of the other pieces of scripture contained in that book—The famous Book of Abraham, which all non-Mormon scholars believe was invented from whole cloth by your first prophet, seer, and revelator Joseph Smith. Also contained there is part of JS’s translation of the Bible, which brings up another interesting question—If Joseph Smith did his own inspired translation of the Bible, why is it not official scripture of your church?

    Before you tell me that it’s because it was never finished, we have JS’s own words that it was. Even if it hadn’t been finished, it would seem that the part that was finished would still be scripture. Your church makes use of SELECTED pieces of his translation—why do you think ALL of it is not used?

    I’ll be happy to finish our discussion concerning truth when you have answered the above.

  72. Really Mormon Relative–You and I both know that the LDS Church wouldn’t allow black men to hold the Priesthood until 1978 when Spender W. Kimball conveniently had a “revelation” that blacks no longer bore the “Mark and Curse of Cain”, and the Book of Mormon was amended to fit. And shall we talk about the Indian Placement Service, which was the LDS way to try to kill Native Americans’–oh, excuse me, Lamanites’–pride in themselves and their culture, the better to be “redeemed”? The Church killed that when too many people hammered them for taking Indian children from their homes and putting them exclusively with white Mormon families under the guise of “improving their lives” (when really they were trying to effectively finish what the US Army started in the 1800s).


    The LDS Church was started by a huckster and a charlatan so that he could get laid and make money–kinda like Scientology, except the LDS aren’t as batshit-crazy as the Scilons are and to my knowledge Joseph Smith only drank rather than popping pills and shooting up various injectables like they were going out of style (which L. Ron Hubbard did). They teach that God himself–excuse me, “Elohim”–came down from heaven and boned Mary, but they never talk about it publicly because us “gentiles” would never understand it. Anything in their doctrine that winds up being embarrassing to the Church gets conveniently edited out when the current Prophet, Seer, and Revelator has a “revelation” and all Church publications are amended accordingly.

    Don’t believe me? Check a copy of the “Big Three” (Book of Mormon, Pearl of Great Price, Doctrine and Covenants) from the 1950s or even from the 70s against a copy from today. You will see some big changes that were made to make the Church look better or whitewash things that thinking people objected to.


  73. LOL you mean propaganda!

    At least my husband doesn’t attend services anymore–he finally stopped going when I told him that he could choose between me or a Church that had been badgering him to leave me for a Mormon girl since the day we got married.

  74. Wow–this sounds a lot like Scientology…except that Mormons aren’t told to “disconnect” from their families and friends who aren’t part of the group. They’re just told that they’re “misguided” or “lying”.

  75. I will never convert back to the worship of your God. And I have a .45 to back that up should the Christofascist Mutaween come knocking on my door to tell me to convert or GTFO the land of my birth.

  76. Your god is an abusive jerk who rules through terror and tyranny. I finally figured that out after almost 20 years in that abusive relationship known as Christianity, before I got the heck up out of there.

    I would sooner dine in your Hell with my honoured ancestors–many of whom laid down their lives for this country, which is more than Glenn Beck can say–than enter your Heaven with a parcel ofdeceitful beggars.

  77. Q:Does it consider its Book of Mormon to be superior to the Christian Bible?
    A: No, See article of faith 8. We believe it is the most correctly translated. Jefferson also strongly believed that the Bible had been sullied and mistranslated. Should we discredit him because he did not follow mainstream Christian beliefs?

    In fact that is what this whole article is about. Should Glenn Beck be discredited because he doesn’t have mainstream beliefs? Many modern Christians (myself included) would disagree with Jefferson’s religious beliefs. Does this mean that all who believe in American principles are “being led along a primrose path by a man who by their own understanding of such things is spreading a false gospel”?

    Q: Does it teach that the highest levels of Heaven are only attainable by worthy members of your religion?
    A: No, see article of faith 3. The savior is the ultimate judge. He has provided a way for all who desire to enter the highest degrees of heaven.

    Q:Does your church teach that it has a living prophet on the earth at its head who has the authority to utter scripture?
    A: Yes. Thank God we have living prophets today just as in biblical times.

    Q:Does your church believe that its priesthood is superior to all others?
    A: Yes, see article of faith 5. That is part of what makes our church true.

    We can roll in the mud all day long. While we fundamentally disagree on doctrine, there is no doubt that strict adherence to the principles of Mormonism will result in a testimony of Jesus Christ and a core value system of integrity, honesty, and charity. These are good things, and therefore true.
    If you want a confirmation of that ask God.

    Christ will ultimately be the judge of my Christianity. I don’t need fallible men to make that judgment for me. I do my best to live my life according to his teachings (as written in the Bible, Book of Mormon, and other holy scripture), and have seen miracles in my life and in my family for doing so.

  78. Seth:

    After reading your reply I feel that I owe you an apology—I’m sorry for going too fast for you. It’s just that there are so many issues and so little time. Are you somehow thinking that we’ll each hammer on an issue until one of us says, “OK, you win”? Here’s how it works—we each take our best shot and go on from there. Do I harbor any illusions that I’m somehow going to get through to you? No. My main purpose here is to make sure that your truth claims are not allowed to stand without counterpoint.

    There are benefits to both of us even though there will be no resolution. I can sleep at night knowing I’ve done my part to prevent your church from leading unknowing people into the abyss. You can go back to priesthood meeting and tell the boys how you defended the faith against a prime candidate for the outer darkness. You get to tell your side and I get to tell mine. If this were a private discussion, I wouldn’t waste a minute of either of our time on this exercise.

    Exposure is what it’s all about, Seth. The more the light of truth is shown upon your religion the better it is for everyone. You’ve no doubt heard the story about how to boil a frog, haven’t you? I believe it to be an almost perfect analogy for how your marketing and sales departments gain converts. If you just throw the frog into a pot of boiling water, he will promptly jump out because he knows something is not right. But if you gently put him in some pleasantly cool water and then turn up the heat very slowly, he will sit happily until it’s too late. If I can let the “frog” know what’s in store for him/her, at least an informed decision might follow.

    So, now that the stone is out of the hat, so to speak, I will be happy to continue our little jousting match if you wish. We can go slowly so you can keep up. I wonder what the audience thinks? Are we boring them? Maybe we should have some input from them—What say you, readers?

    Perhaps just for the sake of review I might note that it was you who dodged the first direct question in our exchange. Remember? You quoted Deuteronomy and I asked you how you knew that particular passage had been correctly translated. I don’t believe you answered. Here’s your chance.

  79. JRG:

    Here are two you missed:

    If Joseph Smith did his own inspired translation of the Bible, why is it not official scripture of your church?

    Your church makes use of SELECTED pieces of his translation—why do you think ALL of it is not used?

  80. I don’t see how this is relevant to the discussion. You are “straining at gnats” and missing the point.

    While I am well educated on the history of the JST, answering your questions requires speculation, I don’t care to speculate. I have not studied the original manuscripts, but plan to do so.

    This article should help to answer your question:

    Now answer my question. Are people who believe in the founding principles of America as taught by deists like Jefferson also being led down a primrose path?

    Truth is Truth, if Jefferson, Beck, or anyone speaks the truth it should be sought after.

  81. Look folks, all of the discussion about Christians vs Mormons is nonsense. All religions are cults. None of them are based on fact. Now just imagine..If you had never been told that there was a Hebrew God or Mormon God and you never were told the story of Jesus or JS. You could read and comprehend but were completely ignorant concerning religions of any sort and someone handed you a bible and the book of Mormon. Could you honestly after reading these documents say that they were factual? It would be the same as reading Snow White or book of Grimm’s fairy tales. NOW, think about your own life as a child, before you could read, starting out by listening to a story teller in a pulpit, convincing you that these stories were true and if you didn’t follow the rules you would burn in hell fire. BUT if you did follow the rules, to a tee mind you, you would meet Jesus somewhere in the sky. By the time you were grown and could read (but not able to comprehend these books) you were convinced that there was an Adam and Eve and a virgin birth and all of the other ridiculous stories within the covers were true. Please folks…use your logic. There is not one iota of proof that there was a Hebrew God that held dominion over every creature on earth nor is there proof that there was a virgin birth.

  82. No one in my congregation is interested in hearing about my online exploits. Most of them consider such debates to be fruitless, contentious, and counter to the spirit of Christ. Most Mormons don’t particularly like arguing, and they aren’t interested in hearing about whether I won or lost debates online about various Mormon topics.

    Who would I boast to?

    This has been a long discussion, so you’ll have to refresh my memory on the Deuteronomy thing.

    And for the record – don’t think my comments have been primarily addressed to you either. They have been, but not primarily.

  83. DDC,

    LDS men cannot achieve the highest form of exaltation without their wives either. So you might as well say we need our wives’ permission as well.

    So your argument about sexism in the LDS temple ordinances on this point kinda falls apart.

  84. OK….

    You make this big sinister speech about how harmful the LDS Church is, and then – for your example – you come up with….

    Not allowing non-members into the temple.

    That’s it?

    This is your big sinister damaging horror story?

    If that’s the best you can come up with, you must really be scraping the bottom of the barrel for arguments.

    As for the rest of that post, I think I’ll just wait until you actually make a point.

  85. Tim, we don’t believe in inerrancy.

    Not for the Bible.

    Not for the Book of Mormon.

    Not for the prophet’s last address in General Conference.

    We don’t have a doctrine of inerrancy. We believe ALL of God’s words can have some degree of error if the medium of transmission involves human beings.

    Therefore the Book of Mormon most certainly is not perfect. Neither is the Bible.

    As for why we don’t use the Joseph Smith translation of the Bible as a replacement for the actual Bible – because Joseph Smith himself did not intend it as a replacement. He wrote it as divine and inspired commentary on the Bible – not as a replacement for the Bible itself. Joseph always used the word “translation” in a much broader sense than we do today.

  86. Marc, belief in God is a far more powerful idea than any of the fairy tales you listed.

    Did Grimm’s fairy tales inspire the Sistine Chapel ceiling? How about Mozart’s requiems? Handel’s Messiah? How about Crime and Punishment? Most of the work of Charles Dickens? Did they inspire Tolstoy? What about Beethoven’s 9th Symphony? Did they motivate Gregor Mendel to study inherited traits? Did they inspire Copernicus and Gallileo to look at the heavens? Did they motivate Martin Luther King Jr.? Did they provide the ideological founding for the American Revolution?

    Hitchens’ argument that God is the equivalent of Santa Claus is infantile, and merely shows how little he knows about his subject matter.

  87. “Tell me, how do you know the quote you cite was correctly translated?”

    Why should it matter? If it speaks the truth, I can judge that for myself, thank you very much.

    Unlike you, I don’t need a doctrine of inerrancy to believe in the Bible. I can see it for its worth and power all on its own.

    Either way, it hardly matters since I am debating with you – who does hold to the extra-Biblical notion of inerrancy. You make an argument against Mormonism based on your reading of a Bible verse, what is wrong with me pointing out a different reading of that verse?

  88. Seth:

    OK, I’ll do your work for you:

    “And Deuteronomy does not say you have to have a 100% accuracy rate to be a prophet. It merely says not to follow a prophet who turns out to be wrong in his “thus saith the Lord” statements.”

    In order to be accurate, I guess I’ll have to call this a paraphrase. So, I’ll ask again–How do you know this passage that you use to support your position has been correctly translated?

  89. Q:Does it consider its Book of Mormon to be superior to the Christian Bible?
    JRG said:
    A: No, See article of faith 8. We believe it is the most correctly translated. Jefferson also strongly believed that the Bible had been sullied and mistranslated. Should we discredit him because he did not follow mainstream Christian beliefs?
    Joseph Smith said:
    “I told the brethren that the Book of Mormon was the most correct of any book on earth, and the keystone of our religion, and a man would get nearer to God by abiding by its precepts, than by any other book.” (History of the Church 4:461)

    Q: Does it teach that the highest levels of Heaven are only attainable by worthy members of your religion?
    JRG said:
    A: No, see article of faith 3. The savior is the ultimate judge. He has provided a way for all who desire to enter the highest degrees of heaven.
    Brigham Young said:
    “…Joseph Smith holds the keys of this last dispensation,……—namely, that no man or woman in this dispensation will ever enter into the celestial kingdom of God without the consent of Joseph Smith…….. He holds the keys of that kingdom for the last dispensation—the keys to rule in the spirit-world; ……..He reigns there as supreme a being in his sphere, capacity, and calling, as God does in heaven. .” (Journal of Discourses, vol. 7, p. 289).

  90. JRG:

    My apology to you as I now see where you did post an non-answer to the two questions I thought you missed.
    As to the JST–I believe there is one main reason why it is not scripture:

    There are some “translations” contained therein that contradict the current teachings of the LDS church. The church is securely caught on the horns of a dilemma– It cannot cannonize it and bring a firestorm of questions down upon it. Nor can it afford to completely ignore it. So it publishes selected portions as footnotes in its new bible. Since you plan to research the source documents, I’ll leave it to you to find them.

    Now the answer to your question is–It depends. I should say that I have not been a party to the Glenn Beck part of the discussion. I only weighed in when Mormon truth claims were being thrown around.

    Let me just say that this issue is a prime example of politics making strange bedfellows indeed. Are you familiar with the White Horse Prophesy? Suffice it to say that until it is clear to me that there are no ulterior motives at play, and that I am reasonably sure that Mr. Beck is more than a gold-plated nutball, I will not be hitching my wagon to his celestial hand cart.

  91. But Seth, the bible stories did inspire great works of art, but saying the bible or the book of mormon stories are true is really a stretch. We don’t know who wrote those chapters, when they were written and we don’t have the originals. What about the books that Nicene excluded, some with direct quotes of Jesus. The Christians I have talk to lately discount the old testament and say salvation is covered in the NT. Well, if one doesn’t believe in one part of the bible or book of mormon, how can one say the other part is factual. Modern religious organizations are in it for the money. Do you really think Glenn Beck is one of God’s messengers? Do you think that the religious Taliban is one God’s messengers? The fact remains is people believe what they are told over what they read. I guess the best part of religious belief is that it provides solace to a great many people. It also provides the world with terrorism. Bottom line….no proof of a Hebrew God that is supreme over ancient chinese, hindu, or the original homo sapiens in Africa. And you are going to hell if you admit this.

  92. I will succeed the first point, the Book of Mormon is more correct in its translation than the Bible. However the Bible is still the Word of God so long as it is translated correctly. Jefferson was wise enough to understand that the bible had been sullied by men (I don’t agree with the conclusions he made as a result). It is wonderful that we have another witness of Christ that sheds light on doctrine that has been tainted by man.

    It should not be a foreign idea that others will sit with Christ on the Judging body see Luke 22:28-30 Christ told his apostles “…and I appoint unto you a kingdom, as my Father hath appointed unto me; that ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel. ” You also left out the context of Young’s point by those dastardly ellipses. Young was speaking to the saints who had been decimated by mobs and evildoers, and had their prophet murdered. His point was that the same people who did harm to the Church will one day stand before the “thrones of judging” and will, with perfect irony, see Smith as part of the judging body.

    The Book of Mormon teaches that Christ is the ultimate decision maker for the gates of heaven. 2 Nephi 9:41″…the keeper of the gate is the Holy One of Israel; and he employeth no servant there; and there is none other way save it be by the gate; for he cannot be deceived, for the Lord God is his name.”

    Brigam Young also taught JOD, VOL7 Pg.288 “All those who have done according to the best of their knowledge, whether they are Christians, Pagans, Jews, Muhammadans, or any other class of men that have ever lived upon the earth, that have dealt honestly and justly with their fellow beings, walked uprightly before each other, loved mercy, tried to put down iniquity, and done as far right as they knew how, according to the laws they lived under, no matter what the laws were, will share in a resurrection that will be glorious far beyond the conception of mortals.”

    We can cite quote after quote, each damming each other, but the truth is self evident. I will say it again, if you live your life as the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints teaches. Good things will happen to you and everyone around you.

    The White Horse Prophecy? Really? Any interesting read, but not substantiated. I suppose only time will tell.

  93. Seth:

    I guess the fact that your church doesn’t have a “doctrine” of inerrancy should not surprise me, given the fact that you have the potential for new, improved, and contradictory doctrine coming at any time. It’s difficult enough to figure out what is and isn’t doctrine since what once was considered doctrine now is not.

    Your statement about the BOM does not appear to square with your 8th article of faith which placed a condition on the Bible as being the word of God but not on the BOM. Tell me—if the Bible and BOM do not agree, which will you believe?

    As to your statement about the Joseph Smith Translation, I will for the sake of argument accept your premise that JS did not intend it to replace the Bible—for the moment. If this is so, what do you do when you are reading the Bible and you come to an important doctrinal passage where the JS “commentary” is completely at odds with the Bible? Yes, I can give you specifics, but for the moment indulge me and answer. Are not JS’s words inspired directly by God and therefore scripture? If not, why not?

    Whether Joseph used the word “translation” loosely is irrelevant. By your church historians’ accounts, he sat down and with the direct inspiration of God and set to paper what the Bible SHOULD have said. He started out and for a considerable time the manuscript completely re-wrote the Bible. This apparently got to be too burdensome, so at some point the procedure was changed to write out only the corrections. Mormon historian Robert J. Matthews wrote that after it was finished, JS expended considerable effort trying to get it published, but lack of funds and other considerable distractions prevented this.

    Now, do I actually believe for a moment that JS only intended this as a commentary—–absolutely not. Here are JS’s words concerning a revelation he received from God:

    “It shall not be given unto you to know any further concerning this chapter, until the New Testament be translated, and in it all these things shall be made known; wherefore I give unto you that ye may now translate it” (D&C 45:60-61)

    For good measure, here’s one more—In God’s own words:

    “It is my will that you should hasten to translate my scriptures” (D&C 93:53)

    Do you think “translate” in this context means something other than its plain meaning? I have witnessed other Mormon apologists tying their shorts in a knot giving tortured explanations of this “problem”, and they didn’t do any better than you. You better skip back on over to FAIR for some other pointers, because your word parsing is starting to sound a little like Bill Clinton.

  94. JRG:
    Remember the question, my friend:
    Q: Does it teach that the highest levels of Heaven are only attainable by worthy members of your religion?
    JRG said:
    A: No, see article of faith 3.

    If you had read on in the passage you came back with, you would have come to the concluding sentence as follows:

    “Are they also damned? Yes, because they have not attained the victory over the enemy of all righteousness. It is the holy Priesthood of God that gives man the victory in this world, and he begins to reign over the power of the enemy here. The keys of the kingdom of the Son of God outreach and circumscribe the power of the Enemy.”

    Now even I know that I can’t have the “priesthood” because I will never be a Mormon. Plucking things out of context is a very dangerous game.

    Under your theology we know that there are lesser levels of resurrection that non-mormons will find their place. The Terrestrial and Telestial kingdoms are above mortal existence, but are most certainly NOT the Celestial Kingdom.

    I’m going to give you one more chance to reconsider your answer.

  95. Tim:
    This debate is cyclical now.

    The doctorine of the church is clear, all people will have the opprotunity to accept the gospel of Jesus Christ and obtain Celestial Glory.

    It is only by an individuals own free will and choice that it is or is not obtainable. However, acceptance means obedince to the laws and ordanices of the gospel.

    Again you have taken Young out of context he was responding to people who ask him “Do you believe that such a man as John Wesley will be damned?” He says “John Wesley is in the spirit world. He did not receive the ordinances of the everlasting Gospel in the flesh, and consequently is not prepared to hold the keys of the kingdom and be a minister of the great work of God in the last dispensation, but is dependent upon others to attain a celestial glory.” He then goes on to the quote you cited earlier. Young did not say he was eternally dammed. He is dammed in the sense that rather than being able to participate as a preacher in the spirit world, he is now being preached to by those who hold the preisthood keys in the spirt world, and being given the opprotunity to attain clestial glory.

    Young clearly stated it is possible for John Wesley to attain Celestial glory.

    Again, if you want to know if this is true take some *action* and then ask God. I sincerly hope you learn to not soley on logic to make eternal decisions.

  96. JRG:

    If by cyclical you mean I have to keep bringing you back to the same answer again and again because you won’t answer truthfully, I agree. From my perspective, you either don’t know what your church really teaches, or you’re loathe to actually admit what your church teaches, what with mainstreaming and all.
    You have taken your ques well from the leadership of your church. The BY passage does not say anything close to what you are putting forth. I suggest that if you really believe a non-mormon can enter your celestial kingdom that you go ask one of your elders this question.
    You continually talk about truth while avoiding answering straight questions. I think I’ll not afford you any more opportunities to bear your testimony on my nickel. Here is the truth–good cannot ultimately come from a lie–in this case the big lie. You can bear your testimony a thousand times and it still won’t make it true.

  97. Sorry Tim, I couldn’t leave it at that. As an Elder in the church, I am confident in the doctrine presented, and any person who reads Young’s sermon with an open mind and has a complete understanding of the doctrine of the spirit world, would know that what I stated is the exact point of Young’s message. Read what I wrote again without your jaded version of what you think we believe.

    Can you deny that as a whole the church is a positive force for good in the world, and that people who strictly follow its teachings to the best of their ability are people of integrity, honesty, and charity? You have not taken any effort to disprove that, only to quibble over interpretation of obscure and non canonized Church history.

    If Mormonisim is a lie and “good cannot ultimately come from a lie” wheres the proof?

    I personally know several hundred church members who adhere to the Church’s teachings and are a force for good. I also have the privilege of hearing the stories and confessions of many members who have strayed away from the Church’s teachings and their lives are in some cases tragic (Adultery, fornication pornography, thievery, these are lies and have clear indisputable evidence that they are bad). People who recognize these lies come to the church for healing and improvement recognizing that if they repent they will once again be put on a path toward good.

  98. JRG, Do you REALLY believe that JS saw Jesus, God and an angel in New York state? How can you take this as truthful? It has always amazed me how many meetings or conversations with celestial beings have been witnessed by a single person and the multitudes take their statement as fact. Please give us ONE fact that proves there is a Hebrew God. Has God ever talked to you? Have you seen him or Jesus or the angel Moroni, or any angel. And the native Americans are a lost tribe of Israel? Cite me a DNA study that proves that. If Glenn Beck said he has spoken to Jesus, would you believe him? Of course you would.

  99. JRG:

    You win? Your capacity for self-delusion is even worse that I originally thought. Just as you can’t make your testimony true by saying it over and over, claiming victory from the ashes of your defeat won’t make it true either.

    This is even more laughable coming from one who has just had to eat crow over making misleading statements. When I read your last post basically daring me to refute your claims of goodness and light for your church, I determined that I would post for all to see the massive indictment that could be produced. But then I realized that I don’t have to do that. Your posts have done that job for me.

    For the past 150+ years it has been the same for your church–say one thing (psst-it’s OK to deceive the Gentiles) and do another. We agree on one thing–by its fruit it has been known, and by its fruit it will be known.

  100. I’m a Mormon. We don’t believe in hell the way a lot of popular Christianity explains it.

    I also don’t consider Beck or the Taliban to be representative of religious people in general.

  101. Marc, modern LDS scholars posit that Lehi’s company arrived on a continent already inhabited with indigenous people – joined that population, and founded a civilization probably no larger than modern-day Alabama.

    Under that scenario, an Middle Eastern DNA would have been diluted and completely lost. So the DNA criticisms of the Book of Mormon simply don’t work – unless you are making untrue statements about the book: like claiming it says that ALL Native Americans are descendants of Jews (something the book never says).

  102. Seth:

    I’m, afraid you’re really in over your head now. NO non-Mormon DNA scientist believes any of your claims. Not one. Your sleight of hand in starting with “posit” and “scenario”, then moving directly to “So the DNA criticisms of the Book of Mormon simply don’t work” is both simplistic and disingenuous.

    The old boys in the church office building know this battle is lost. They have already begun changing how this is taught by the church. Did you notice that they very quietly changed the title page to the BOM? Maybe JS actually made the change and it was just discovered—

    Seth, I think you need to give this up and go find some more gullible targets elsewhere. The jig is up for you here. Why don’t you just bear your testimony one more time and then move along to more fertile fields. Maybe there are some 3rd world country blogs where you can make some headway—-

  103. Tim, Mormon scholars have been teaching and advocating a limited geography model for the Book of Mormon for over 50 years now. The model was derived off the “war chapters” in the Book of Alma where marching times of armies and various cities and landmarks are laid out in great detail. There is simply no way – on a plain reading of the actual text – that Nephite/Lamanite territory covered entire continents. It was more likely the size of modern-day Guatemala.

    As for your last paragraph – this is nothing more than a pathetic plea for me to quit disagreeing with you.

    Your arguments have proceeded in most cases from false assumptions about what Mormonism is, and have been plagued by ignorance of what the most modern Mormon counterarguments are. And when your arguments fail you, you usually resort to dismissive hand-waving and insult in order to try and cover up how ignorant you sound.

    The DNA argument has been a joke and an embarrassment for anti-Mormons.

    It was so cute how excited all the ex-Mormon and Evangelical counter-cult establishment got when DNA tests revealed the primary (not sole) genetic source for Native Americans to be from Asia. People really did think they’ve finally found the silver bullet to kill Mormonism once and for all.

    Then, it was equally amusing when all the triumphant chest-thumping turned into howls of stunned outrage when Mormon scholars not only refuted the entire premise of the DNA critique of Mormonism – but didn’t even break a sweat doing it. The entire argument’s force was essentially neutered as soon as you no longer assumed an intercontinental Book of Mormon society.

    Now, fanboys of the DNA argument have been reduced to pathetic whimpering about how “a lot of Mormons still believe in a continental model.”

    Yeah… sure… like I care. The TEXT of the Book of Mormon is clear on this and always has been. The Book of Mormon describes a geographically limited society and never says that Lehi and company were the sole genetic source for that society. So while a few Mormon folk teachings may have been debunked, the TEXT of the Book of Mormon has emerged utterly unscathed by this critique.

    Your call for non-Mormon scholars in this instance is a ridiculous attempt to change the subject and seems to indicate that I just won the battle for CONTENT of argument.

    Eight times out of ten, the side that rushes to attack the messenger first, is usually the side that just lost the argument on merits alone.

    It shouldn’t matter if an argument is coming from Mormon or non-Mormon scholars – so long as the content of the argument is solid.

    In this case, it is. Common sense about population genetics indicates that a small group of immigrants would have their genetic signature diluted, masked, and swallowed up by the larger surrounding population.

    Ask any population geneticist of any or no religious affiliation and they will verify this concept for you.

    And, contrary to popular opinion in some quarters, there has never been a genetic study actually designed to refute the Book of Mormon. The DNA mapping of Native Americans was done by scientists with absolutely no interest in the Book of Mormon whatsoever. They were only trying to locate the primary source of Native American genes.

    But you can go ask them if their study was meant to rule out ALL possible genetic inputs to the American continents – including small groups of immigrants, and they will quickly tell you that the study does NOT rule out such inputs.

    This is just common knowledge in population genetics. If you weren’t so blinded by your agenda, you’d be able to see this.

    But I guess it’s hard to give up a treasured argument – even if it is a stupid one.

  104. “When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross.” attributed to both Huey P Long and Sinclair Lewis

  105. Seth:

    My, my—we’re a little touchy now aren’t we? After all, we’re just talking about a 19th century work of fiction that has had an almost infinitesimal effect on the world in general and Mesoamerica in particular. The only reason we’re going at it here is that I’d like to keep it that way. You have made so many misleading, obfuscatory, and unfounded claims, that I will try to answer every one. I will however beg your indulgence if through boredom I should miss one or two. Before I get started though, I must again remind you that you are still apparently ducking my very first direct question to you regarding your citing of Deuteronomy.

    You say:
    “…Mormon scholars have been teaching and advocating a limited geography model for the Book of Mormon for over 50 years now.” Follow closely now because this is going to get technical—SO WHAT!? Firstly, this only means that this particular problem with the BOM was recognized many years ago. Secondly, all “Mormon scholars” take great pains to disclaim that they in any way represent the official position of your church, never mind that a good portion of them are employed by the church at BYU. Finally, isn’t what the current leaders and prophets of your church have to say on this subject that is really important? Of course it is. Allow me to summarize what they say—-“Uhhhhh, we’re not sure.”

    As for my last paragraph being “..nothing more than a pathetic plea for me to quit disagreeing with you”, it was actually a benevolent statement attempting to save you from further embarrassment here. What credibility you might have begun with, is long gone by now I’m afraid, as this last post of yours has practically made my case for me.

    Now on to the DNA. Just as an overall summary of my thoughts concerning your comments, I will say that methinks you protest too much. I’m going resist my temptation to follow the longstanding tradition of your church and just change a few strategic words or phrases in your diatribe to make them say what I want.

    There is not ONE SCINTILLA of DNA evidence that supports ANY of your claims regarding the ancestry of the native peoples of North, Central, South America or anywhere else on the planet. On the other hand, there is mounting evidence to the contrary. Your apologists go to great extremes to explain away this complete and utter dearth of DNA evidence, but nobody is listening—and for good reason. You make the point that no studies have set out to specifically prove your claims false. Let me tell you why—in the total scheme of things in the scientific community NOBODY CARES! Your claims are considered to be so baseless that they don’t warranty inquiry.

    Of course the Sorenson Molecular Genealogy Foundation has been trying very hard to prove your claims have even some basis in fact, but alas, none has been produced. To the contrary, Scott Woodward, the director of the foundation co-authored an interesting paper in 2009 that put a big nail in your claims. Here is the link in case you would like to read it:

    Yawn—continuing on, you said:
    “The entire argument’s force was essentially neutered as soon as you no longer assumed an intercontinental Book of Mormon society.”
    Now we have to ASSUME something in order for your case to make sense. Now I’m amused too! In your world it’s easy to move from “posit”, “scenario”, and “assumed” to “I’m right and you’re wrong”—I can understand that knowing from whence you commeth.

    You also say:

    “Now, fanboys of the DNA argument have been reduced to pathetic whimpering about how “a lot of Mormons still believe in a continental model.”

    Yeah… sure… like I care.”

    While I’m not sure what it is you don’t care about, I hope it is not the considerable numbers of faithful Mormons like Jose Aloayza who is quoted on this subject in USA Today:
    “It’s very difficult. It is almost traumatizing,” said Jose Aloayza, a Midvale attorney who likened facing this new reality to staring into a spiritual abyss.
    “It’s that serious, that real,” said Aloayza, a Peruvian native born into the church and still a member. “I’m almost here feeling I need an apology. Our prophets should have known better. That’s the feeling I get.”
    In Closing:
    Thank you for attempting to lecture me on your interpretation of what the BOM says. I guess you don’t care that your interpretation is not shared by a bunch of your own brethren. Thank you for making claims that the leadership of your church is unwilling to make. Thank you for showing the folks of this blog what it is like to discuss LDS truth claims with a faithful member such as you, as this just makes my goal easier to realize.
    Now for something I know you will be happy to see. I am now leaving on my annual month-long fly fishing trip during which I do not embrace technology. You may have the satisfaction of getting in the last word as I’m sure that I will have completely lost interest in this endeavor by the middle of October.
    Finally here’s a little tidbit gleaned from your bio on your blog site because it perfectly encapsulates the nature and quality of your contributions to this discussion:
    “My two primary vices are computer games and making bold assertions without backing them up.”
    I rest my case. Further affiant sayeth not

  106. Yup Tim, finish off with another straw man attack on the messenger rather than addressing the message.

    Par for the course for you, I guess.

  107. Tim:
    I can’t tell are you just anti-mormon or anti-religion? DNA evidence also strongly supports evolution, and discredits that the human race starts with Adam and Eve.

    Do you also attack other Christian Faith’s because of DNA evidence?

    Despite these contradictions Christian Faith (Mormonisim included) is still a overwhelmingly positive force for good, when followers strictly adhere to its *true* principles.

    God intentionally has left us to discover on our own and to find contradiction, those who exercise their faith in spite of contradictions are people of honor and will stand with God at the final judgement.

    If the answers were clear cut and un-obfuscated, life would be dull, meaningless and with out hope, and against the purpose for why we are here on earth. Life was meant to be a challenge, where those who stand for truth will always be victorious.

    Those who expect the truth to be handed to them by science on a silver platter will be forever disappointed. Those who pursue science as a means to do good will be blessed to catch a glimpse of the knowledge of God.

  108. Funny, at first I thought I would defend the Mormons, since I am a Mormon convert and the assertions here, which are so disheartening, are spreading all over the Internet, because of opposition to Glenn Beck.

    Then, scrolling down, I see others stepping forward to set the record straight. Then, unfortunately, I see the discussion devolve into a tit for tat and name calling, where obscenity and even profanity are resorted to.

    Christian versus Christian in the context of discussing how to save a falling Christian nation, a nation who stands on the brink of destruction and its people being brought down into captivity, and this because iniquity abounds.

    Yet the Christians in the nation, those who confess with their mouths the Lord Jesus, and believe in their heart that God has raised him from the dead, fight one another over his doctrine: Accusing one another of sin and deception.

    What we should all agree on first is that the nation needs to repent, as did the city of Nineveh. LDS Christians invite non-LDS Christians to consider the revelation of God that says “…my vineyard has become corrupted every whit; and there is none which doeth good save it be a few; and they err in many instances because of priestcrafts, all having corrupt minds…And there are none that doeth good except those who are ready to receive the fulness of my gospel, which I have sent forth unto this generation.”

    But if those who reject that message will just go their way, trusting in the priestcraft of their choice, they have nothing more to fear from Mormons than the ancient Jews had to fear from the followers of Jesus. They don’t need to fight against them, for as the wise Gamaliel said so long ago:

    Ye men of Israel, take heed to yourselves what ye intend to do as touching these men.
    For before these days rose up Theudas, boasting himself to be somebody; to whom a number of men, about four hundred, joined themselves: who was slain; and all, as many as obeyed him, were scattered, and brought to nought.
    After this man rose up Judas of Galilee in the days of the taxing, and drew away much people after him: he also perished; and all, even as many as obeyed him, were dispersed.
    And now I say unto you, Refrain from these men, and let them alone: for if this counsel or this work be of men, it will come to nought:
    But if it be of God, ye cannot overthrow it; lest haply ye be found even to fight against God.

    For, just as Jesus said unto the unbelieving Jews, we say to you that

    We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness.
    If [we] have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if [we] tell you of heavenly things?
    And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
    And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
    That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
    For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
    For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
    He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
    And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
    For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
    But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

  109. I am truely saddened by the many remarks I have read in this article for one reason alone. My Bible states that any teaching of Scripture to do with eternal life which does not agree that God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit together made up the world and all that is in it, and that Christ, being the only begotten Son of God is the Propitiation, meaning He is the Way, The Truth and the life, whereby all persons who truely believe in the Divine Grace of God unto salvation, must put aside any other Doctrine, being themselves in danger of hell fire. God was never a man nor is it at all possible that man can become a God. It is appointed once for man to die, then comes the judgement. Heaven is a place reserved for those who have received the promise of God by His Grace alone will spend all eternity with our Maker in perfect peace. Our works have nothing to do with this. James says: ” By their works you shall know them.” Even the devils believe and tremble, but they chose to follow their father Satan, and thereby they have chosen against the Awesome God of all creation, which is a the reason that they are destined for eternity in a place where the worm dies not, and the fire is never quenched. I pray for you who do not in faith receive the true doctrine of our Father in Heaven, Who saw the only provision for forgiving mankind was to give His Only Beggotten Son for the payment.

  110. I am a recent convert to Christianity and held the belief that Mormons were just another “Christian” denomination. After reading this I guess I was wrong. I will never look at those “and I’m a Mormon.” adds the same way again. It seems like you just point out the the common ground to get someone in the door. Then when the are spiritualy invested you drop the bomb. Then a person is stuck. Either eccept the crazy fairytails, or admit that you have been believing a lie for years. Even only half accept the fairytails the Mormon Church keeps growing.

  111. A Christian is a person within whom the Spirit of Christ dwells. A Christian is not a Christian because he says he is, he is a Christian only if Christ Himself abides within him. Even then, there is the ‘salvation of one’s soul’ that happens, or should happen, throughout one’s lifetime. You will not hear many rant or raves from those whom the Spirit of Christ has truly overwhelmed, for to be Christlike is to be just that sort of person who is liked by anyone thirsting for truth; Christian, heathen, mormon, muslim, athiest, etc.
    Also, Christ commands us to love the Lord our God with all our heart, mind and strength. Few ‘christians’ do. I have been a Christian for as long as I can remember, and not in name only. Only recently have I loved my God in this way, and I am 44. God has made me an undivided man. My request, His doing, and a great pressing down in my life until He did. But these are just the prayers God answers. I do not have my rent for this month yet, but I do have a peace that assures me the Creator of the heavens and the earth knows me as one of His own–His work, not mine–and I have no fear. I do Love God, because of the overpowering Love He floods every detail of my life.
    As to your statement about Christians referring to all other relegions as false with a straight face, as if they were saying ‘the rain has got me wet’, comes from several streams. One; when the Spirit of Christ begins to indwell a man, He realizes that something has happened to him that he would have liked to have happened, but never really expected it to. Two, having this awareness doesn’t make you wise. We may have a testimony, but too many of our own words. It is disrespectful and without honor to make that statement. There is no one a Christian is called not to love or lay down his life for. Christ only harrassed the self-righteous of his own faith. But even here, Christians are instructed to be accurate and private as possible unless the error is not repaired. Third, it is one thing to love, honor and lay down one’s life for someone of a different faith, it is another thing to say ‘you might be right, also’. To say this, for a Christian, is to say God lied to Christ when Jesus (Christ) asked ‘Is there no other way?’ And God’s answered ‘no’, and Christ proceeded to the Cross. For me, who is indwelled by the Holy Spirit to say anything else except ‘I’m sorry, but you cannot be made right with God unless you come to the Cross of Christ and give up your life in exchange for His’, well I would not be telling you what I believe, and deceit for the sake of kindness is still deceit. Christ died for all, or He died for nothing and was the greatest fool of all time. There is no other way to see it.
    Lastly, Christians are people who are being transformed. There is a point where we have more words and not yet enough of Gods love. But God only has people to work with, and this is our nature. So He saves us and it is a very messy ordeal for quite a long time. Have you ever seen a child being born? Yet there is beauty to behold, and God sees past our form to what He is going to make of us. This is His Business and not ours.
    One might say to God at judgement, ‘well I didn’t believe because I knew some bad Christians.’ But all He’ll do is point back to the Cross. ‘But I sent my own Son to die for you. My own Son. I only asked you to follow Him. That was enough.’
    Never let people keep you from Christ. A great many people breath air, some of them very bad, but do you still inhale, or do you close your mouth and hold your nose.
    Christ died for all, but few find it was a high enough price. As for myself, I cannot look back, for my Lord has carried me to His Cross, there crucified me and laid me in His tomb–and now I Live. Psalms 31
    God bless you, and I am sorry for the mess, but do please join me. God is faithful to accept all who come to Him.
    His Spirit searches, as mens hearts grow cold.

  112. O.K. ‘Never trust an Ex-‘ is to make an absolute statement that to be an Ex- automaticaly disqualifies you from being right. Therefore, only non-Ex’s can be believed. So follows, if an Ex- and a non Ex- are arguing. Only the non Ex- has credibility. The Ex- is disqualified. Therefore, non Ex- wins by matter of position, not Truth. (Not to mention, Ex’s are always bitter, therefore non Ex’s are what? More rational?)
    This will be convenient at the judgement throne, if God is uncertain and mormons are having an argument with that Ex Jew as to His special divinity in comparison to their own.
    Only Begotton Son vs. created from dirt sons.
    I was adopted, and from here, the beauty of eternity leaves me no need for godhood.
    I like God being God, for He is a joyful God.
    Works for me.

  113. Simple.
    God’s cause is not the United States of America.
    God’s cause is the redemption of men and women from the earth, purchased by the blood of Christ.
    We have become the church of Laodicea. Some of us will allow God to wake us, heal us and clothe us, so that we can return to loving and giving our all for our brothers, neighbors and especially, our enemies.
    Those who do not wake up will be deceived into doing the work of harvesting angels, work that is not and never was ours to do–physically or verbally. And after they persecute muslims, they will turn to mormons, atheists… and other Christians. And then the state will crush them, destroying the wheat as they destroyed the tares.
    The work of the church is the cross. We all have a role as citizens, but America is not the Kingdom of Heaven.
    Isreal is secure. God protects her now.
    We have no other mission before God as a nation, so let us attend to the great commission less we destroy what God has given.
    I was a Conservative Christian, but as my Krishna friend said “What does conservative have to do with Christ?”
    My politics are my politics, and as in all things, I pray.
    But my life belongs to Christ, and the winds of change are blowing through the branches. I have not preceived all that He says, but as for the body of Christ, it seems time to let the nation go, and instead, attend to the orphans, the widows and the poor. The very thing Christ asked us to do.

  114. In reading all the above statements, I can’t help but feel great sadness. Those defending Mormonism seem to be very artful dodgers. They reject the first cause method. Do we live in a creation that consist of lesser gods? What is the connection to the past 2000 years? Is there no continuous apostolic connection? It doesn’t bother you that the short history of your religion is filled with contradictions? You act as if all that smoke has no fire! It seems to me you want it both ways, that what God said was not good enough the first time, as if man could spoil what God himself said he would protect. Yes, men are fallible, but God is not. He came here and put together his apostles and gave us the way. That is it! He didn’t need someone 1800 years later to say he didn’t protect his word. Wake up before it is too late! Your church was not started by Jesus. It was the great deceiver, who was once an archangel created by God, not his brother.

    I believe that the Mormon church has some great family ideas and has very good citizens, but so does the boys club. You think you have the truth and if you do, Jesus was not God, and his promises were nothing but words. Think about it! How can the Holy Spirit be defeated by men. The christian church has had bad times, but always kept alive by the Holy Spirit, keeping Jesus’ promise of protection. So, either the bible, God’s word, is true or its not! The book of Mormon is not needed.

  115. Coming from someone who seems to have really tried hard to mess up an understanding of what Mormonism is and what Mormons believe, I have a hard time even listening to your attack on… who was it?… Beck.

    I suggest, next time you criticize someone, at least do so in a somewhat honest way, eh? Unless, of course, you are intent on being blatantly opportunistic… ;)

  116. People need to wake up the fact that Glenn Beck is simply another opinion pushing charlatan who is a product of mormon cult theology that he mixes with parts of Catholicism and his personal core as a dry alcoholic. And for the record, he is a Mormon and not a Christian. The two are not the same as one is a cult and the other is a religion. This makes Glenn Beck one very twisted screwed up moron who sold his soul to the lowest common denominator of personal stupidity. And for the record…the religion of Islam has far more in common with Christianity than the mormon cult.

    The truth about Beck is that he a dry mormon alcoholic who never got the counseling required for alcoholics. Because he does not possess a single ounce of journalistic integrity, this makes him the perfect abortion poster child for Fox Network. Considering the fact that Beck’s personal views are extreme Marxist Libertarian, his form of patriotism is false and he is a person who has no real substance or depth. This over-paid idiot got in bed with Satan a very long time ago.

    Glenn Beck consistently demonstrates all the unstable behaviors of a dry alcoholic which include grandiosity, judgmentalism, intolerance, impulsivity, ADD, indecisiveness and blindness to truth. In short, Beck, Limbaugh, O Reilly, Hannity, Palin, O Donnell, Coulter and others like them frequently pervert truth, history, facts, religion and the US Constitution when they open their big mouths. Beck is simply part of a national league of pseudo-conservative idiots who make big money by selling lies and half truths to impressionable fools that occupy the lowest levels of society. Basically…tea baggers and registered republicans who are condemned to repeat the mistakes of history.

  117. Mormonism is a cult. A cult is any group (regardless of its size) that interprets the doctrines of a religion in an unorthodox fashion. The term “cult” is not a derogatory term and is not to be confused with the phrase “cult following” as that has an completely different context. The term “cult” is an established form of classification that religious scholars recognize in the categorization of belief systems. Cults have come out of all major world religions and Christianity is no exception. However, the two are not the same. The major cults that have come out of Christianity are “Jehovah’s Witness” & “Mormonism”. Likewise, cults have come out of other world religions.

    Here is an easy way to understand the difference between the two. Religions create their doctrines based on interpretation of their scriptural teachings within its original context. Basically the doctrines of a religion are developed secondarily and on the basis of scriptural interpretation. There is an order of precedence here where scripture and its interpretation in its context come first and the development of doctrines come second.

    However, cults do things in just the opposite order which is why they have to rip off a religion to survive in their grand scheme of deception. Cults just make up doctrines out of the blue without any real scriptural foundation and then steal the scriptures of other religions & take them totally out of context to support their cultic teachings. That is exactly how the Jehovah’s Witness cult began. A 5th grade graduate known as Charles T Russell had a difficult time with the concept of Hell so he started an entire belief system on the foundation that hell does not exist. They were called Russelites then. After ripping off enough people and being found guilty of perjury in a court of law, Charles T Russell’s name was a negative thing to be associated with so a judge in Missouri changed the name of the cult to…”Jehovah’s Witness”

    Also…a major thing that easily distinguishes a religion from a cult is history & archaeology. All religions will have the benefit of historical recordings and archaeological finds on their side. This is not the case with cults. Nothing in the claims of Mormonism has ever been discovered in North America and many fraudulent attempts have been made to sell manufactured relics. Those who understand why Mormonism is a cult also know why there will never be any true historical or archaeological findings in North America to support events in the book of mormon. They don’t exist. Even the Smithsonian Institute had to step forward and make a statement years ago that nothing valid has ever been unearthed to support any archaeological events in the book of mormon.

    Another hallmark of a cult is the fact that they start on the foundation of 1 single point and then weave a tapestry of twisted logic and stolen religion around that point. If Mormonism wants to be considered a religion, it has to stop stealing from Christianity as Mormonism teaches an entirely different God, an entirely different Jesus Christ, that Jesus Christ and Satan are brothers, that God was once a human man who attained god hood status and is populating earth through his eternally pregnant wife, the cross and the trinity mean nothing, there are many gods, baptism for the dead and a whole host of other cultic teachings that are not supported by biblical scripture.

  118. Very good point! Most religious followers don’t realize there’s a difference between having faith and being willfully ignorant. Being in a constant state of denial about any questions one should be raising about their beliefs is not faith, it’s ignorance. I mean, there are millions of Scientologists out there who believe in Xenu… believing JS was given and then lost some holy golden plates isn’t such a stretch in comparison… (I actually see a lot of parallels between Scientology and Mormonism)

    The whole point of faith is that it is meant to be tested.


    Damn, that Mormon marketing knows exactly which buttons to press!

  119. Wow, looks like replies no longer get placed beneath the post they’re a reply to? That’s gonna be confusing…

  120. It is documented fact that the Book of Mormon has had over 3,000 errors corrected, and, that Joseph Smith was an extremely corrupt man. With that said, how can so many supposedly intelligent people, including Glenn Beck, look into these documented facts and question what they are following. It was very revealing to read an book that is almost 100 years old, “Mormonism – the Islam of America” and read the truth of this false religion. I once worked for a Mormon who was actually over several “Stakes” in a region of the country. He was so easy to trip up when confronted with the truth of God’s word. I am so surprised at the blind following of some people. The more I more examine my faith in the God of the Bible, the more He proves Himself to me. Anything that is born of man (Joseph Smith) will fall…

  121. It is documented fact that the Book of Mormon has had over 3,000 errors corrected, and, that Joseph Smith was an extremely corrupt man. With that said, how can so many supposedly intelligent people, including Glenn Beck, look into these documented facts and question what they are following. It was very revealing to read an book that is almost 100 years old, “Mormonism – the Islam of America” and read the truth of this false religion. I once worked for a Mormon who was actually over several “Stakes” in a region of the country. He was so easy to trip up when confronted with the truth of God’s word. I am so surprised at the blind following of some people. The more I more examine my faith in the God of the Bible, the more He proves Himself to me. Anything that is born of man (Joseph Smith) will fall…

  122. You are wrong about the blacks allowed to be Mormon until 1978. Blacks could be a Mormon at anytime (and there were tens of thousands of members who were black)and be baptized at anytime. The blacks weren’t able to recieve the priesthood until 1978. That’s what youmeant to say. Not sure why and I am not happy about that either but that’s what happend then.

  123. Mormons believe they are led by prophets of God, who have received divine revelations as appointed leaders of the LDS church. If this is true, then the question can be asked, did the predictions/prophecies made by the prophet come true? Joseph Smith, the church founder, made 30 prophecies over a 21 year span, 1823 – 1844. Not one of those 30 came true. According to the Bible, a true prophet must be correct in his/her predictions 100 percent of the time (Deut. 18:21-22). The Mormon “Doctrine and Covenants” promises that every prophecy it contains “shall all be fulfilled” (D&C 1:37). Hyrum Smith, Joseph’s brother, was a bit more forgiving, saying that any prophet, if they “hit once in 10 times that is alright.”

    Let’s compare Doctrines – Mormon Beliefs and Christian Beliefs

    Mormon Beliefs

    There are many gods—i.e., polytheism. The god of this planet is an exalted man with a body of flesh and bones. He has at least one wife, probably more.

    We pre-existed in heaven as spirit children conceived via celestial sex between Heavenly Father and Heavenly Mother. Our actions in the pre-existence determined our race on earth.

    Jesus, the first spirit-child of Heavenly Father, is the spirit-brother of Lucifer. Jesus is only one of many created gods.

    Jesus was conceived on earth via sexual intercourse between Heavenly Father and Mary (who was a virgin, until she had sexual relations with Heavenly Father).

    There are three levels of eternal life, the highest level being godhood, which is available only to perfected Mormons.

    Salvation is achieved only by those who do enough good deeds and obey all of God’s laws (i.e. works of righteousness).


    A third god, like Heavenly Father and Jesus, but with a spiritual body only, rather than a physical body.

    Christian Beliefs

    There is one God—i.e., monotheism. God is not a man, nor does God have a body. God is not married. No Bible verses even hint at God being married.

    Christians are children of God by adoption. One’s spirit is formed on earth as they begin life within the womb. God is no respecter of persons and in Christianity there are no race distinctions.

    Jesus is not a created being, but rather, is the Creator—i.e., God in human flesh.

    Jesus was miraculously born of the virgin Mary in fulfillment of Old Testament prophecy (Is. 7:14). He was conceived without the aid of man, by the power of the Holy Ghost.

    There exist no other gods, nor can any person become a god, no matter how dedicated they are to the church.

    Salvation is not obtained through works of righteousness, but by simply asking God for forgiveness and giving one’s life to God.

    God, the Third Person of the Holy Trinity, co-equal and co-eternal with the Father and Jesus (i.e., not a separate entity, but rather, one being with the Father and Son). In other words, the Father, Son , and Holy Ghost are one eternal God (analogous to how a singular concept like “time” consists of three distinct units ([i.e., “past,” “present,” and “future.])”

    One does not have to be mormon to know what mormons believe. Just like one does not need to take poison to know it will kill you. The Truth sets us free. Mormon’s please get off your high horse and stop claiming to be Christians, you are not the chosen race and you have chosen to follow a false prophet, Joseph Smith. You have all been deceived.

  124. It is funny how some who criticize Mormons will are not ever held to the standard that Mormons are made to. They act like there has been some sort of unified Christian belief system in place for the last two thousand years. Why was there even a need for the Creeds? Obviously, there were many who did not agree with the orthodox just as Jesus did not adhere to the orthodoxy of his time. I’m sure under the above definition of cult His was certainly accused. I can see it now, Joe Biden, Nancy Pelosi et al sit down and write down what true Christian faith is and then for the next thousand years burn at the stake and put to the rack any one who is not Religiously Correct. Then a thousand years later the Tim’s of the world step up to defend it with their lives.

    It’s funny that when it’s Joseph Smith that practices polygamy and lies about it there is no conversation about Abraham doing the same and lying to the authorities in Egypt about his marriage. No response to the above post about all the polygamists of the Bible. Jesus had some very interesting things to say about Abraham in the New Testament none of which was condemnatory of his marriages.

    Certainly, the author of this article was not a member very long. To declare that Mormons do not believe in the divinity of Jesus Christ is one of the most absurd things I have ever heard. Makes me question whether he really knows about anything about the things he writes about in this article.

    It’s funny to hear Tim argue because it is very obvious that he knows more about Mormons than the author but he is disingenuous with his knowledge or is completely ignorant or blind to the same arguments that pertain to his own beliefs.

  125. This again is disingenuous or ignorant. Mormons did not believe the government had a roll in a church sacrament and many times would not bow to government intervention in marriage or divorce. Also the concept of sealing did not constitute marriage but a bond that was needed to be a part of the family of Christ. Were there consummated polygamous relationships? Absolutely. Is this subject the boogeyman that enemies of Mormonism make it. Not hardly. Thus no response on the many prophets who were polygamists in the Bible. Either Tim is just regurgitating what he has read or heard or he is only expressing what would seem the most damaging as a half truth. Hmm

  126. the only people you can trust to tell you the truth about the morman church
    is most definitely an ex-morman they have been there and back

  127. You smugly throw the pejorative “cult” around like its a 500 lb manhole cover. More correctly a “cult” is built around: “A charismatic, self-appointed leader with complete authority – Many cult leaders truly are charismatic people, and are able to influence people to believe them.” I think that describes about every evangelical mega-church in America whose adherents hang on every word of their charismatic leader. Be careful how you describe a faith you don’t agree with or fully understand. I would find deep offense if YOU told me that Jesus Christ was not my Lord and Savior. That is between me and my Lord. If you tell me Jesus Christ is your Lord, I’m happy for you. I insist you do the same for me. I’ll pray for you, dear traveler.

  128. The author should not be speaking to his knowledge of Mormon doctorine being that he is a ex member who is now disenchanted and definitely ill informed. go to the source people when the Toyota dealer starts writing articles about Mazda you can bet your only getting half truths.

  129. I gave my opinion as you are free to do as well. I am not an ex-member of the mormon church.

    However I have attended the Reorganized Church of Latter Day Saints which is of course Becks church. It in itself is a much more gentle form of mormonism.

    The Mormon church is well known for its repression of people within the church who speak out about it.

  130. Actually its back to the place where we started, a righteous America, a God fearing America, an America that could host the final resurection of Jesus Christs true church. The America that respected peoples rights to worship as we allow others to worship. Our 11th article of faith states “We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may.” Don’t confuse this with Mormons being happy that our nation now worships themselves, tv’s, pornography, sports, money and power. I have personally witnessed two different occasions in which members of our church raised funds, donated materials and provided labor to build onto or construct new meeting houses for members of other faiths. Mormons absolutely love it when anybody worships God the Father, His Son Jesus Christ or even just one of them or both of them as one, we don’t care how you worship but we pray each and every night that more of us would pray each and every night. To paraphrase a famous carpenter if their not against us their for us.

  131. Yea people go and look at these books then you will see that this man is as big of a liar as he is a hate monger.

  132. Glenn Beck is a mormon cultist and and you’d have to be less than a half educated idiot to believe anything this fool says. This closet homosexual never went to college and never knew anything about World History, American History, World Religions or the US Constitution. He is simply a mocking bird for the twisted views of the John Birch Society and people need to wake up to the fact that Glenn Beck is just another uneducated charlatan who does not possess a single ounce of journalistic integrity. He is definitely not a conservative. In short, he is just another opinion pusher which is why he blends in so well with the bigots on Fox News Network. This self important racist climbed in bed with Satan a very long time ago as lies, half truths, fear and hate are his only products that he has for sale and he is making big money off of impressionable fools who love being told what to think. Glenn Beck is simply a product of mormon cult theology that he mixes with cherry picked parts of Catholicism, New Age Religions and his personal core as a washed up, dry alcoholic. This makes Glenn Beck one very screwed up moron who sold his soul to the lowest common denominator of personal stupidity. Beck consistently demonstrates all the unstable behaviors of a dry alcoholic which include grandiosity, judgmentalism, intolerance, impulsivity, ADD, indecisiveness and blindness to truth. In short, Beck, Limbaugh, O Reilly, Hannity, Palin, O Donnell, Coulter and others like them who think they are conservative are all guilty of perverting truth, history, facts, religion and the US Constitution when they open their big mouths. They are all idiots who live in and speak to some alternate reality of stupid red necks that feed off of fear & hate mongering while being fed a steady dose of extreme right wing lies.

  133. There is so much lying and intentional deception when it comes to the trusting the Mormon folks to once and for all, consistently describe what their true doctrine really consists of. So, people need to research from the horses own mouth, being that their books and “apostles” have avaialble their quotes in black and white. As for those who were once involved in that man- can- become- god- religion, are mantaining what they have heard and read from the original sources. So they should not be discounted simply bc Mormons want to keep people off balance and lie about doctrine for some odd reason. Have enough respect for yourself and Joseph Smith’s religion to tell everyone what you all believe uniformly, and stop with the blatant changing of verbage and games. I am so sick of the stuopid games. People are not as stupid as you think. Finally, leave your blind and dead prophet, and his tales and read the bible alone for truth through the original disicples who lived among the Christ. Thank you.

  134. You absolutely do not believe the holy spirit performed a miracle with Mary. you are the liar. You believe that your god became a man and came down and impregnated Mary. You also believe that you can be a god and rule over your own planet. You also believe in a proven false prophet. Your cult is truly ruining souls.

  135. Dear Rex,
    sorry it’s not a fact. Black people were admitted from day one. You are talking about the Priesthood – different to membership.

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