Tax Exempt Cheats: The Mormon Church Egregiously Breaks the Law to Fund Mitt Romney

Most Americans comprehend that when two parties enter into a contract, they are legally bound and committed to its promises and must follow the terms explicitly, and if one side fails to meet their obligation, the agreement is broken. There are laws to ensure parties entering into an agreement with the U.S. government abide by the rules, and if they choose to break the agreement, it is breached and the government is obliged to collect damages and take punitive action against the offender if they are a congressional representative, president, or a religious organization.  Four years ago, one of the richest religious organizations in the country broke their agreement with the Internal Revenue Service, and they deserve nothing less than revocation of their 501(c)(3) status as a non-profit organization, and the IRS is bound to collect taxes that were lost retroactively by virtue of Section 501(a) of the Internal Revenue Code. Furthermore, the Department of Justice must investigate and prescribe a comprehensive audit to determine the amount of back taxes owed the United States by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints; the Mormons.

In June 2008, the First Presidency of the Mormon church sent a letter to church leaders in California to be read to all congregations on 29 June 2008 regarding California and Same-Sex Marriage, instructing cult adherents to “do all you can to support the proposed constitutional amendment by donating of your means and time to assure that marriage in California is legally defined as being between a man and a woman. Our best efforts are required to preserve the sacred institution of marriage.” The First Presidency said church teachings are unequivocal and that “local Church leaders will provide information about how you may become involved in this important cause.”  The cause, Proposition 8, discriminates against LGBT couples, and in keeping with their belief that the U.S. Constitution is secondary to Mormon edicts, broke their agreement with the U.S. Internal Revenue Service and should have lost their tax-exempt status immediately.

In June 2011, a member of the Mormon general authority used LDS Church email to solicit campaign contributions for Willard Romney’s run for president. W. Craig Zwick, who is a member of the church’s First Quorum of the Seventy and father of Romney’s finance chairman wrote, “How much can you contribute to the Romney for President Committee today? You can only give $2,500 max for you and your wife. Let me know — let’s take back America!” According to Revenue Ruling 2007-41 of the IRS, the law “prohibits political campaign activity by charities and churches by defining a 501(c)(3) organization as one “which does not participate in, or intervene in (including the publishing or distributing of statements), any political campaign on behalf of (or in opposition to) any candidate for public office.”

In 2004, the “IRS selected 110 cases for examination, issued 69 written advisories, revoked the tax-exempt status of five organizations and proposed revocation for two others,” and every election cycle sends out reminders to Charities and Churches of Political Activity Ban. The Mormons, like every listed 501(c)(3) religious organization, received the IRS reminder and they ignored the rules because they believe church law supersedes U.S. law and the Constitution. Interestingly, the Mormon hierarchy admonished “authorities and general officers of the church and their spouses and other ecclesiastical leaders serving full time should not personally participate in political campaigns, including promoting candidates, fundraising, speaking in behalf of or otherwise endorsing candidates, and making financial contributions.” Apparently, even though the church leadership sent out a letter stating its policy on political participation, it was only for show. These are egregious violations and typical of religious fanatics who have inserted their dogmata into legislation and political activism, and it is high time all churches lose their tax-exempt status. However, like the United States Council of Catholic Bishops (USCCB) and evangelical extremists, the Mormons are blatantly thumbing their collective noses at the letter of the law and they are profiting handsomely from their illegal activity.

Willard Romney gives a substantial amount of his investment earnings and large stock donations to the Mormon church from deals with Bain Capital, and there is nothing wrong with funneling money and stocks to the Mormon church. However, not only does the church avoid paying tax on the income, but Romney deducts charitable donations from his income tax returns and it is in part why he pays a lower tax rate than his secretaries and groundskeepers.

American taxpayers have given entitlements to churches for too long, and religious organizations are no better than any other American regardless if they are the Mormon cult, Catholic anti-contraception advocates, or evangelical homophobes. There are those who trumpet all the good work churches do in the communities, but their work is no better than teachers, firefighters, community volunteers, and police officers who pay their fair share in income and property taxes. Every church benefits from every other American’s fuel, sales, income and property taxes, and the entitlements must stop. States, cities, and rural communities are struggling in a slowly-recovering economy, and regardless if it was thriving, it is time to stop welfare to churches, the clergy, and religious-oriented PACs.

The majority of Americans believe the wealthy should pay their fair share in taxes, and churches are in the same league as the 1% who receives subsidies and entitlements from American taxpayers. Many of these so-called “non-profits” sit on expensive real estate and use the roads, police, schools, and fire protection that other Americans are funding with their tax dollars. Many people of faith complain that there are small congregations that are poor, but if they are poor, then they should pay the same rate as a poor family. Fair is fair, and the proselytizing entitlements have gone on long enough; especially in light of interference with women’s health and discriminatory legislation imposed upon the gay community by Mormons, Catholics, and evangelicals.

Republicans claim America is broke, and yet these mega-organizations are living off of government entitlements while they use the GOP to impose their religious dogmata on every American whether they adhere to their religion or not.  The clergy “double-dips” on their earnings that drastically reduce their tax liability, and by paying next to nothing in taxes are robbing communities, states, and the federal government of much needed revenue while they support cutting social safety nets and giving the wealthy larger tax cuts.

The Mormon problem is especially egregious because they flaunt their total disregard for the law and their agreement with the IRS with impunity, and the public suffers loss of revenue as well as discrimination based solely on the First Presidency’s edicts gleaned from the Christian bible, golden tablets, seer stone revelations, and Book of Mormon. The IRS and DOJ must investigate, audit, and revoke the Mormon church’s tax-exempt status and end their entitlements that fund discrimination against gays, Willard’s plans to privatize education, Veteran’s Healthcare, and worst of all, increase taxes on the poor. If Romney thinks the poor’s taxes should be increased sixty percent, then it follows that the Mormon church’s tax increase 60%  to repay Americans for the subsidies that has allowed them to amass considerable income and mammoth land holdings as tax-exempt, non-profit proselytizers.

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101 Replies to “Tax Exempt Cheats: The Mormon Church Egregiously Breaks the Law to Fund Mitt Romney”

  1. His absolute fidelity to Mormon Church doctrine really frightens me. Especially that part about him trying to be the white knight (a Mormon president) who will convert all of us to that bizarre religion.

  2. I would trust the Mormon Church a lot more if they weren’t so secretive about their male-dominated heirarchy, it is more like a secret society than a church

  3. Too many of us know (remember) how the Mormons treat outsiders, especially those who will never convert. They cannot be trusted for many reasons – their secrecy, their abusive and vicious treatment of the Other, and their strict patriarchal hierarchal structure.

    To leave a little child to live or die on the side of the road just because he was not Mormon… (SHUDDER!)

    Plus I have problems with some of their “holy books”… teaching overt (and disproved) racist lies. With all of the changed stories about how the “Book of Mormon” came to be (through a “magic window”, then “given to Smith by an angel”, etc.), it’s rather obvious to most people NOT in that cult that Smith was a scam artist who may have begun believing his own scam.

    They are not too much different from the dominionists IMO, except that they’re more limited in geographical scope and numbers (but not in fanaticism). As crazy as some of their teachings are, they’re no worse than those of the NAR.

  4. It is perfectly legal for religious groups, just like any non-profit, to support NON partisan issues so long as they do not exceed 5% of their entire budget. That made the YES on 8 work in CA perfectly legal.

    Pumping money for a partisan candidate? Ohhhhhh – SO not legal!

    Look- the progressive faith community does all their work strictly by the law. We create legal 501-c-4 organizations that are not tax deductible (and thus hard to raise money to support) to do our advocacy work. WE do it by the book, so when the conservatives think they get a pass on this, turn ’em in! NO use doing it over NON partisan issues – it would be very hard to prove they’d exceeded their budget limits – but partisan? NOT a problem.

    And please – when you decide we have to remove tax exempt status or to tax churches – you’re affecting your allies who are more poor than your opponents. The laws are fine – see that they are applied. And don’t throw us, the progressives, out with the bathwater of conservative illegalities, OK?

  5. “In June 2008, the First Presidency of the Mormon church sent a letter to church leaders in California to be read to all congregations on 29 June 2008 regarding California and Same-Sex Marriage”

    If you look at the tax guide for Churches and Religious organizations (http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/p1828.pdf), on page 8 it makes a specific distinction between Issue Advocacy vs. Political Campaign Intervention. So, the Mormon Church advocating for proposition 8 does not actually violate the law.

  6. Also, the email is probably in violation since I’m assuming that email would be considered a “Church Publication”, but this certainly wouldn’t lead to revocation of tax exempt status. One guy making a single boneheaded mistake is not a great yardstick for determining tax exempt status.

    It looks like the common sense reasonable punishment would be an excise tax for the cost of the campaign activity (which would be zero, since it was only an email) and the Church would need to also correct the violation (which should consist nominally of retraining the staff about the law and perhaps at worst firing the person who sent the email). I think we need to keep in mind that it’s not just LDS that receives tax exempt status, but all sorts of other groups and charities. Do we really want to hang the The sword of Damocles above every tax emxempt institutions head?

  7. I am always concerned, because our tiny, not-close-to-rich UU church is always on the forefront of fighting for LGBT rights, the environment, the poor, minorities, and so on, yet the broad brush paints us the same as the hate-spewing bigot-loving megachurches up the road (all of which would have our church GONE and the members too -even dead- if they could). We don’t proselytize, but some people tend to lump us in with those that do (including the ones who proselytize and harass US).

    Outside of all of the “Black Churches” in the area, ours is the only one not in that designation that takes part in the MLK parade… and this has been true for a few years at least. We march because we believe in what he stood for and equal rights is a fundamental part of our church (part of our stated principles in fact).

    We put our money, what pittance it is, where our mouths are. We’ve given even when we really didn’t have it to give. Any increase in taxes would hurt us… might even force us to close our doors. The megachurches? They wouldn’t be touched… too many slimy lawyers who know dirty tricks to keep the church out of the public’s vision.

    I strongly second what you said… somehow force the government to ENFORCE the laws, rather than hurt the few that are really trying to make a positive difference!

    I’ve heard too many stories of support of Republican politicians from the pulpit – seen the “value voter’s guides” in the pews of the Episcopal church we used to attend every time there was an election (which made it clear that no Democrat should ever be voted for – and “nobody knows how they got there!” -wink wink), even church (and church school) direct involvement in things like destroying all liberal/Democrat signs, but I never hear of any investigations (for instance, a news report a few years ago described the arrest of a “car-load of young people” for destroying hundreds of Democrat signs – never mind that they were all dominionists from a megachurch with indications that they’d been “encouraged” to violate people’s rights).

    “They” (outside of Florida for instance) seem to think we can and should handle things on a local or state level, but that doesn’t happen. That’s not at a high-enough level to protect the investigators from bribes or political pressure.

  8. Romney is running around with one attack today –
    Solyndra solyndra solyndra. Perhaps someone here could put me right about this, I had the opinion that the Solyndra loan was pushed through by George Bush in 2007 and the funding came with the stimulus,am I wrong?

  9. Only religious “non-profits.” The article was very specific to focus on religious organizations; not all non-profits. Bottom line, they are taking welfare from hard-working Americans and using it to impose their religious dogmata on every citizen through legislators beholden to cults.

  10. Yes, it was Bush. Interestingly, the GOP has already announced they will harp on Solyndra until election day and then stop because they found no malfeasance.

  11. Proof that mormons are not Americans? You be the judge.

    BTW, I got your gold plates and you been lied to

  12. Every once and a while I encounter such bald-faced bigotry and vile hatred, that I myself feel genuinely frightened.

    As a Mormon, I experienced it reading this article full of half truths and a couple big lies, and the accompanying ignorant, bigoted, hateful comments that ultimately follow.

    Consider this: if you could replaced the word “Mormon” with “Jew” in the article, you would get a lot of love from the KKK groups out there.

  13. I dunno, the article seems to focus on Mormonism, not religious non profits in general Similarly, I think an argument can be made about removing tax exempt status from religious institutions, but we need to be consistent in this view and acknowledge that this would include Jewish, Muslim, Buddhist,etc organizations as well. One other problem you are not addressing is that many religious institutions, particularly the Catholics, have sprawling charitable and non profit healthcare and education networks. I’m not really sure the public is better served by taxing these institutions. It’s not as simple as saying, “hey, let’s use the IRS to punish religious institutions who don’t vote adequately in our favor”. It’s kinda like when the Catholics were against obamacare and everyone was shouting that they should lose their tax exempt status, then the catholic abortion concerns were mostly
    Addresses and the Catholics started championing
    Obamacare. I didn’t hear any calls from the left to remove their tax exempt
    Status after that. Where’s the consistency?

  14. But as usual, you are incapable of telling us what the lies are. Are you pretending to know what the church leadership is doing?

    How about if you replaced the word lies with your “facts”?

  15. Was it a damned lie or half-truth that when my foot was injured in an outing with a group of Mormons (including adults), they threw me on the side of the road while telling me “You’re nothing but a Gentile Brat anyway!”, and left me there to live or die (they went on their merry way, not caring what happened to a little boy entrusted into their care)? I remember it very well, all these years later, including the look of hate and disgust on their faces. I crawled for a long way along a busy Mormon highway (in Utah) before a non-Mormon young woman found me and brought me home. There were cars passing all the time – good Mormons (which I despise as much as I do “Good Christians”) who wouldn’t even slow down for a badly injured and bleeding little boy.

    Was it a lie that they wouldn’t allow my parents into their homes, but took me and my little brother in to tell us how horrible our parents were because they weren’t Mormon?

    Was it a half-truth that the Mormon shopkeepers wouldn’t do business with non-Mormons… and that Mormon citizens wouldn’t even try to help someone not of their religion?

    What about African Americans. Is it a lie that it took a federal lawsuit to force your religion to revise it’s rules regarding them? That your church’s official doctrine up to that point was that Africans were cursed by God and thus their black skin, and nobody cursed by God could serve in any capacity in your church. Not only that, but the stated belief was that if a black person repented and the curse was somehow lifted, they’d turn white? (Yep, not only remember that but heard that from others who lived in Utah among the Mormons, in the 60s.)

    What about the lies in your “Book of Mormon” regarding my own people – American Indians? Sorry Charlie, we’ve been here for many thousands of years, and (1) there have never been any “Lost Tribes of Israel” here and (2) our genetic code proves we aren’t in any way related to the Jewish people as well. I could go on and on. Plus there are the lies your Joseph Smith told… did you know that there are multiple claims regarding the “Golden Plates”, and some of them were standard fare for con artists of the day?

    It’s pretty certain that Smith was a con artist who began to believe his own con (which sometimes happens to con artists with a loose grasp on reality).

    You need to wake up and smell the coffee as much as the “Good Christians” do… you’re following liars and con artists.

  16. Depends on the tribe. The chippewa do not have mongolian beginnings, but European.

    Get the book DNA USA, very interesting stuff

  17. Not the only ones. There is an interesting study on the genetics of the Windover people (early Archaic period). The closest match to their haplotype is found in a small area of France (maybe also Spain).

    Supposedly sometimes researchers encounter that haplotype in Southeastern tribes, from what I remember reading. It supports the maritime hypothesis, which I find compelling.

    NONE, however, come close to the Jewish markers. Just too much distance/time between.

  18. Mitt Romney is not going to use his presidency to attempt to convert anyone. That’s a tale the Mitt haters would like you to believe.

  19. “To leave a little child to live or die on the side of the road just because he was not Mormon… (SHUDDER!)”

    Where did you get that cock-a-mammie story from?

  20. “they threw me on the side of the road while telling me “You’re nothing but a Gentile Brat anyway!”, and left me there to live or die (they went on their merry way, not caring what happened to a little boy entrusted into their care)? I remember it very well, all these years later, including the look of hate and disgust on their faces. I crawled for a long way along a busy Mormon highway (in Utah) before a non-Mormon young woman found me and brought me home. There were cars passing all the time – good Mormons (which I despise as much as I do “Good Christians”) who wouldn’t even slow down for a badly injured and bleeding little boy.”

    Sorry Walkaway, but your tale is too fantastic to be believable. I lived in Utah all my school life. You state that “I crawled for a long way along a busy Mormon highway (in Utah) before a non-Mormon young woman found me and brought me home.” You seem to be claiming that the others who passed you by knew–without asking–that you were not a Mormon just by looking at you. You also claim that “the Mormon shopkeepers wouldn’t do business with non-Mormons”. That’s a laugh. The shopkeepers didn’t care. All they wanted was to do business and make sales–Mormon or not.

    Another fable you’ve gotten wrong: “the stated belief was that if a black person repented and the curse was somehow lifted, they’d turn white”. I think you are referring to Native Americans (Indians), not to African Americans. The fable was being speculated on when I was a kid in Utah in the sixties.

    Too many holes in your post, dude. Your obvious hate for LDS is sinking the rest of the points in your post.

    You need to chill.

  21. No one says he would try to convert. But you know full well the mormon leadership would be all over Romney. He cant stand up to anyone, and the church would have no problem with him.

  22. Really? Exactly what road was it? In what town, county, state park? The use of the word Gentile is oddly out of place as “Mormons” are scooled in the same way and schools as everybody else. I f some crime happened to you why didn’t you tell a police officer using those “non-Mormon” people as witnesses? You gave a long dramatic story with little in the area of evidence. Even a guy like me who voted for Obama last time around can tell there is little fact in your fairytale.

  23. Don’t believe it? You will face the truth when you meet your maker. In a situation like that… facing absolute truth, it will no longer be possible for you to deceive yourself. Nobody will.

    I don’t give a flying f*** if you believe me or not. I’ve had it with you God-damned “good” religious people and your “Holy” ways. I lived there. I remember it. My parents remembered it, and told the story of what happened to me to others, who remember what they said. I know, you don’t want to believe your religion is as evil and deceptive as it is. I’d bet that you know better yourself, but cannot face the truth within you. Just as the dominionists don’t want to face the truth about what they actually worship.

    I know the truth about your religion. Just as I learned the truth about fundamentalist and dominionist “Christianity”. You aren’t any different – you are just alike. You worship evil and call it good. You hurt innocent people and claim you’re healing them. You prey on the poor. You not only try to deceive others, but you deceive yourself. Truth is, you (and the Dominionists) break God’s heart.

    Just as the dominionists hide in plain sight and try to keep their real nature hidden, so it is with you and your fellow “Mormons”. However, the good news is that there are many Mormon walkaways, even as there are dominionist walkaways. We tell people the truth about the religions we suffered under. Yes, I’ve suffered under both. As an outsider in Utah as a little boy, and when I made the stupid mistake of getting involved with the Assemblies of God as a young adult. You want to know something? Except for some difference in words said and so on, you are just the same.

    I believe the Mormon walkaways and they verify the sort of things we experienced. There are others, including people here who have experienced Mormon cruelty and heartlessness. They know the truth and believe the walkaways. So do the people trained to help people who escape CULTS. Yes, I’m telling you your religion is a CULT, including all of the implications behind that term.

    Don’t bother trying to shut me up or shout me down or flimflam me. Guess what… I’ve faced worse. MUCH worse. Some of the people here have seen the evidence and will back me up on that score.

    I’d go so far as to tell you to take a hike if you aren’t willing to face the truth about your own religion, but that’s not my place.

  24. Shiva claims that the church would be all over Romney.

    Not true. If that were the case, the church would have been all over Harry Reid. The church stays strictly neutral where politics is concerned. Only in cases that are moral issues (i.e. prop 8 ) do they take a stand, which is their right.

  25. I was a four year old at the time and don’t know what happened to the group, but I’m not going to give you any information beyond that, what happened, and that it was in Utah. I suspect, knowing the attitudes of the people in those years (I will admit a few decades back), that nothing was done because we were “Gentiles” and facing a hostile culture.

    Just like the dominionists, the Mormons are known for using or threatening violence to shut people up. Dominionists tried to shut Darla Kay Wynne up. Ditto for David Mullins. There are many others… that’s why so many of us use pseudonyms, because of the willingness to do evil and violence on the behalf of fundamentalist religion, to try to silence people who don’t agree and who are vocal about it. I’d bet that if the word went out, a lot of ex-Mormon walkaways would come running to testify as to what they went through, and even to the violence used to shut up people the Mormon church doesn’t like.

    I’m going to make you Mormons a suggestion. Rather than trying to silence my voice, why not do some serious self-examination and reflection on your own church? I mean, wouldn’t you rather see it made better than more evil? There is a gift that is rare, not pleasant, but truly a good gift of God… to see one’s self as others see one. I’ve faced that. Can you and your church do the same?

  26. An email from one individual expressing his personal opinion does not constitute endorsement from the church.

  27. See my reply below. In brief… it happened to me. I was that child.

    Don’t bother trying to shout me down or shut me up either.

  28. Tut-tut, m’man. Your anger betrays you. I’ve been in the church longer than you’ve probably been alive. Mormons are not perfect, but they–as a group–are certainly not the evil and wicked bunch you try to paint us as. You state that “the Mormons are known for using or threatening violence to shut people up”. Why is it that in my 55+ years in the church, I’ve never seen, much less heard, of that happening? My second question is: what is there that we would feel a need to shut folks up about?

    No…you’re trying to sand-bag us–and we’re not falling for your story.

    Here, have a chill pill or two: [] []

  29. Your statement contradicts itself

    It is not their right to enter into political arenas

    Reid is not president, and he is a far stronger person than Romney

  30. I guess this group is a nobody?

    First Presidency of the Mormon church sent a letter to church leaders in California to be read to all congregations on 29 June 2008

  31. Wrong! Gentile is exactly what Mormons, “Latter Day Descendants” of Travelling Israelis consider any non-Jew. Their literature is rife with direct references to Lamanites and Nephites, and those are not Europeans.

  32. This is not about Mitt attempting to convert anybody. Who cares?

    This is about him imposing the bigotry of a fraudulent cult upon others.

    “Those who believe absurdities commit atrocities.” Voltaire

  33. By best friend recently fell off their bike after hitting a curb to avoid one of “their” many vehicles illegally parked in the bike lane in one of “their” neighborhoods…he laid there in pain, in the street while listened and counted 5 cars pass him; no one stopped.

  34. Aren’t ALL organized religions “Fraudulent Cults”?

    Politics, Media, and Organized Religion…Controlling the masses thru fear

    Religion was invented when the first Charlatan met the first fool.

  35. It was well known that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints participated in the political process to support prop 8 in California. This is not a violation of the requirements for tax exempt status. Churches may take a stand on any issue. It is when supporting a particular candidate that tax exempt status becomes an issue. Either the author of this article is an ignoramous or he seeks to mislead people by including the prop 8 issue in a discussion of tax exempt status.

  36. “Is it a lie that it took a federal lawsuit to force your religion to revise it’s rules regarding them?”

    I presume you mean the Aaronic priesthood being limited by lineage. Yes that is a lie. Furthermore, all Christian denominations believe that the Aaronic/Levitical priesthood was restricted by lineage in biblical times. None of them have ever condemned this. Furthermore, Jews, who are the only group besides Mormons to lay claim to the Aaronic priesthood today, still restrict that priesthood to descendants of Aaron and/or members of the tribe of Levi. There has never been any federal lawsuit on the matter.

  37. AWlakaway wrote “What about the lies in your “Book of Mormon” regarding my own people – American Indians? Sorry Charlie, we’ve been here for many thousands of years, and (1) there have never been any “Lost Tribes of Israel” here and (2) our genetic code proves we aren’t in any way related to the Jewish people as well.”

    Here are two facts you will never here from people like AwWalkaway.

    1. 1996 – Genetic research reveals that when using an observed mutation rate of 2.1/1000 (Weber & Wong), most American Indians are descended from a guy who lived in 151 BC (Underhill 1996)

    2. 2004 – Genetic research reveals that 15% of Yemenite Jewish males have Y-chromosomes belonging to a subclade of a lineage group now called Q1a3. Most Native Americans belong to a subclade of Q1a3.

  38. AWalkaway wrote “That your church’s official doctrine up to that point was that Africans were cursed by God and thus their black skin, and nobody cursed by God could serve in any capacity in your church. Not only that, but the stated belief was that if a black person repented and the curse was somehow lifted, they’d turn white?”

    First I want to note that this belief is antithetical to racism which is based on the belief that biology is the cause, not the result of behavior. Aside from that it is inaccurate.

    I also want to draw your attention to the work of two British researchers named Towne and Hulse who observed in the 1960s and 1980s a rapid change in skin color among the Habbani Jews. Google “Towne Hulse Habbani skin colour diversity” for a full report.

  39. Have you seen “the books”, Jack? You know, the financial ledgers of your local ward…have you marched right in there and demanded, “Let me see the books…the REAL books! I want to know where ever dime I and everyone else tithes is going”…

    If you haven’t, and I doubt this would ever occur to you as that would get you kicked out of the cult faster than McDonald can flip a burger. Since we all know you haven’t, you’re just creating more false equivalencies to avoid the inevitable facts; you belong to a cult, Jack…
    I can hear your “inappropriate” superior laughter, Jack (notice how your laugh sounds just like Mitts?).

    Cults thrive and survive on control of the loot they shake down from followers knowing they never have to justify what their up to, not even to the people they scam…the Mormon church isn’t original; it’s just recreating a knock-off scam styled after the Rev Moon model, and, the books should be treated as such…fraud, tax-evasion, etc. just like Moonies.

    I will find the video on Youtube secretly filmed during a temple service of the “shake down” method Mormons use on people sitting in worship for $$$. Right out of a mafia movie, Jack…but then again, you already know this is how it works

    …you’ll never know where they money is or where it’s going; cults of this magnitude have no transparency. They demand loyalty to their secrets…you’ll never know the reality, Jack, but the federal government, they have the “right” to know. The Fed has a right, and will eventually get their books, Jack, hopefully, before they flee the country like all cult leaders do when the law is on to them(or,like the mormons always do when reality rears it’s head, usually after they murder a bunch of innocent people out of paranoia). It’s all about the behavior surrounding the money, not the belief…say that over and over a few times and let it sink in…

  40. No, he won’t convert you, as in he won’t care whether or not you believe in the Mormon faith, just as long as you obey the church’s laws.

  41. It wasn’t just an email from any individual, First Presidency of the Mormon church instructing cult adherents to “do all you can to support the proposed constitutional amendment by donating of your means and time to assure that marriage in California is legally defined as being between a man and a woman. Our best efforts are required to preserve the sacred institution of marriage.”

    If, as the right-wing claims, Obama was a Muslim and a high official in Islam sent out something like that, the GOP and its dittoheads would be having a field day over it.

  42. Yeah, Jack, and replace the word “Mormon” with “Muslim” and you’d have Rush Limpballs, The Donald and Faux News running with the article 24/7.

  43. it reminds me on how the Republicans have tried to insist that general George W. Bush never existed. The Mormon church never had a first presidency of the Mormon church.

  44. Let’s be exact. There’s a big difference between the Udall brothers and the Lafferty brothers, and although Rott is not the latter, neither is he the former. He appears, in fact, to be a fatuous, self-righteous asshole. Meanwhile, to the local Latter-day Trolls, you might prove your case better if you attempted to prove your superstitions less.

  45. What road? Lindsey and Hermosa Vista in Mesa AZ…right between two wards, one on each corner plus a third another mile north…

    Nor I wouldn’t get into an accident near Val Vista Rd where all the houses in the neighborhood look like gated “compounds” with huge walls around them that not in compliance with city code (these are not your typical track mansions)…plus this one house has these two, self-standing 2-story “decks” that actually resemble guard towers peering inside the walls…
    When I first moved there, I thought the pale yellow or pale blue compounds were occupied by drug dealers trying to blend into the burbs until I was “cued” into “the look”…

  46. “Underhill 1996”??? There are many Underhills. I know a researcher by that last name – a REAL scientist. Some are Mormon geneologists, which any REAL researcher will laugh at (I’ve seen them grasp at straws to try to make connections, without real documentation – yes, I’ve done geneological research – properly documented at that). I’ve also heard of problems that the scientific community has had with Mormon researchers who ignore real science and try to prove Religion, just as we have problems with the damned Creationists and all the lies and nonsense they “publish”.

    Unless you’re quoting a peer-reviewed scientific journal, don’t bother replying – and it had better be the real McCoy and not one of the bogus journals put out to try to prove your religion (for instance). I can reference the article as soon as you spout it if it’s in a real journal, and just from what you said it sounds like another Mormon pseudoscientist spouting lies to try to “prove” the bullshit lying “Book of Mormon”.

    Pseudoscience is a big issue in the scientific and educational communities. I’ve been privileged to help teach such a course several times, including the lies being taught as official doctrine by the Mormons. The pseudohistory being taught is just that – false.

    Hey, if you make scientific claims, you leave yourself open to scientific inquiry and being disproved. You also leave yourself AND your religion open to being examined and exposed in a class on the subject of pseudoscience.

  47. You’re going to have to do better than that. You throw names out, but no journal references.

    That shows you don’t know how to properly reference things. It doesn’t matter that people are British, or anything like that – information like that is meaningless and doesn’t point to the source of information. Ergo, no scientific training (one of the first things we learn to do is if we’re going to reference, how to do it properly).

    Give it up. You CANNOT win.

  48. I think you’re saying that they (the Mormon trolls) are allied with people that they should avoid.

    (I’m having a bit of difficulty understanding the point of your comment.)

  49. People and animals have sometimes depigmented if their water supply was tainted with effluent containing hydroquinone, a common byproduct of synthetic rubber/vinyl/plastics manufacture. It’s usually a spotty depigmentation, though. I suspect any actual “miracles” are that.

  50. Here’s an example. This is an excellent and accurate book (the author is well regarded in the scientific community), and it disproves some of the historical claims in the Bible (for instance, regarding the destruction of the towns by Joshua and the Israelites):

    Mazar, Amihai
    1990 Archaeology of the Land of the Bible – 10,000-586 B.C.E.. Doubleday Publishers, New York.

    For most uses, the publisher information isn’t required. That’s just one format that I use, there are other ones, but all of the requisite information is there. You HAVE to have things like article name, journal name, and so on if you’re going to cite.

    BTW… that’s just one of many books in my personal library, and yes, I’ve read them all (my own reference library is tiny compared to my mentor’s, and most academics). My collection of peer-reviewed scientific journal articles takes up several gigabytes of space, and yes – I’ve read all of them too and used almost all of them for classes and lab research.

    (For one project I’m working on now, over 50 new articles researched and utilized – we expect the research I’ve done to be published.)

    In other words, I know what I’m talking about, not only when it comes to subjects like Archaeology and Anthropology, but also subjects like quoting, what a valid source is and isn’t, and how to tell the difference.

    I hope this is useful… and it’s also a suggestion (that you won’t win in your attempts to bullshit people).

  51. The duplicity of the Mormon “church”:

    “Some of the Elders seem to be tripped up in a moment, if the wicked can find any fault with the members of this Church; but bless your souls, I would not yet have this people faultless, for the day of separation has not yet arrived. I have many a time, in this stand, dared the world to produce as mean devils as we can; we can beat them at anything. We have the greatest and smoothest liars in the world, the cunningest and most adroit thieves, and any other shade of character that you can mention. “We can pick out Elders in Israel right here who can beat the world at gambling, who can handle the cards, cut and shuffle them with the smartest rogue on the face of God’s foot-stool. I can produce Elders here who can shave their smartest shavers, and take their money from them. We can beat the world at any game.”

    Brigham Young 1856

  52. Medical conditions too. I’m thinking of the old book – I think the name of it is “Black like me” or something like that, written in the 50s or 60s. I read it back in the 70s and it was already dated. It discusses a medical condition that causes loss of pigmentation and how a white guy could take medicines and pass as black (or black with the medical condition if he cut back on the dosage).

    I’m only vaguely aware of the chemicals you mentioned… when I read your post it triggered a few memory cells, but I think it was one of those things I read that fell under the category of “That’s interesting, but not germane to what I’m looking for”.

    For one project I’m working on, I had to learn a bit about hair color and pigmentation. Otherwise, I barely know anything about the subject, except for instance how skin color relates to racism.

  53. You cannot convince me that the Mormon Church (LDS) will not use Romney’s election to the presidency to prove the validity and power of the Mormon Church. Romney’s election would be a trigger for a world-wide push to convert everyone to Mormonism.

  54. Oh, and the belief isn’t antithetical to racism. It’s a clear example of racism in action.

    Racism isn’t necessarily based on skin color being a genetically inherited characteristic (although it largely is and the assumption is that skin color is part of the picture). For instance, in Brazil, there are many different terms referring to race, and there is a saying in that country that “Money whitens”. In other words, economics and status plays a part too.

    The essence of racism is the idea that one group of people are more deserving than another. We also find examples and evidence of racism against Italians, the Irish, and other European groups, who were originally thought to be the same as Africans, and then eventually accepted as “White”.

    So the Mormon belief that if the curse was lifted, they’d turn white is demonstrated to be racism, and it’s also not scientifically valid.

  55. It’s likely that the link was with the ancestors of the Basques, who inhabited that area since at least the Upper Paleolithoc, long before Indo-European immigrants arrived. Even before DNA analysis was being used, there were similar blood types and sometimes physical similarities.

  56. I’ve seen you cut-and-paste bastards before and your constant accusations of “Liar, liar, prove you’re not lying”. You are cowards to the last one, skulking where no one can smack your face with a glove and order you to get up before dawn. And now, prove you’re not a yellow-livered rat. You can’t, because you are one.

  57. The Mormon Church did the same in California when they dumped millions of dollars into a campaign for Prop 8, to ban gay marriage.

  58. whine, whine, whine………
    Come on they haven’t spent money and if you can’t even talk about who you support maybe we should just be communist. I want to know who my leaders recommend and then I make up my own mind.

  59. you are a fool, except for personal contributions ALL records are open for all members to see, any time they want. Yes allllllll

    Bishop Kastner

  60. Ah, but when a church gives huge amounts of money to run a deceptive campaign meant to strip people of their rights through changing the law, that’s a different story altogether.

    It was a deliberate attempt to not only influence the election, but to get the result they wanted.

    What is doubly damning is that they’re stripping people of their rights and dictating their private lives and morality. In other words, your church is forcing it’s religion on others (which makes it no different than the Taliban or the Dominionists).

    I’m sure your church’s lawyers were real slick in trying to set things up so they didn’t get punished. But that’s par for the course. Stay a hair’s thickness from violating the letter of the law, while ignoring the spirit.

    Oh, and I’ve read that a lot of the California public is now realizing they’d been had. I hope that Proposition 8 gets eliminated soon.

  61. I’ll reply to that one too, although someone who is a practicing Jew (or knowledgeable about their practices, history, and beliefs) should really be the one replying.

    We’re talking about REAL Jews, not the fakes you find connected with other religions… like the “Messianic Jews” and I understand you Mormons also think you’re somehow Jews.

    Nope.

    The Jews have always maintained the priestly line was hereditary. Descendants of Aaron and the tribe of Levi as you say. Funny you people would deny them their own heritage and try to steal it for yourselves… although as I’ve come to realize, fundamentalists are bad about that.

    You ARE talking about their history and religion, NOT YOURS.

  62. Your leaders are not the church. If they are leading you for political reasons they are guilty of breaking the law. We already know the Mormon church has broken the law

  63. From exmormon.org

    “You will be expected to donate at least ten percent of your income to the church as tithing. Other donations will be expected as the need arises. You will never see an accounting of how this money is spent, or how much the church receives, or anything at all about its financial condition; the church keeps its finances secret, even from its members.”

    From http://www.mrm.org/tithing “Tithing by Coercion.

    “…If a Mormon does not pay his tithes, he cannot get a recommend to participate in the temple endowment ceremony. If he cannot get a recommend, he cannot go to the temple. If he cannot go to the temple, he cannot go to the celestial kingdom; hence he receives damnation in the next life. Consequently, if the Mormon wants to escape damnation, he is compelled to pay up, whether he likes it or not. This is tithing by coercion, not the biblical method prescribed in the Bible.”

    I’m just getting started…

  64. No it is not their right even in moral issues. It is quite clear the church is not allowed to engage in political campaigns and that means propositions on the ballot as well

  65. Nice trick, trying to equal the church and the people. It doesn’t fly, however.

    It’s a proven fact that the Mormon church’s money was what largely funded the duplicitous drive behind Proposition 8. Problem is, the last I read, the California people are starting to realize they’d been had, and that the Mormons and fundamentalists/dominionists were to blame. (Not surprising… they are very much the same in a lot of ways.)

    I hope Proposition 8 gets kicked off the books soon.

  66. I’d rather live in a communist country as compared to one run by the Mormons or the Dominionists. There would be a lot more freedom and less harassment. A LOT more.

    That is, if I was forced to choose between the lesser of two evils. I’d much rather live in a country with a very strictly and carefully regulated capitalism, where the legal system kept the rich from gaining too much power.

    One where “socialist” programs like universal health care, a living wage, and things like that are implemented. Where the poor are permitted some dignity and their lives aren’t made harder by the greed of the 1%.

    One where laws work to keep racists at bay and promote equality and freedom for all.

    Especially one where the separation of church and state is kept inviolate.

  67. There was a letter to the editor, claiming that Romney’s tithe to the Mormon church was purely voluntary, and supporting him. I’ve known that it really wasn’t, but didn’t know any details.

  68. Patently untrue. One particular issue with religious non-profits is they do not open their books. Of all corporate entities, only churches are allowed to conceal their finances from the IRS, State tax boards, and particularly their adherents. If one thinks otherwise, they’re misinformed and too trustworthy.

  69. In case anyone looks at this old thread…

    Feder, K 2008
    Frauds, Myths, and Mysteries. Science and Pseudoscience in Archaeology. chap. 5 (pp. 102-122). McGraw Hill.

    Toner, M. 2006. Impossibly Old America? New sites and controversial theories fuel the debate over the origins of America’s first people. Archaeology 59(3): 40-45.

    Film: They Were Here: Ice Age Humans in South Carolina. 2002. 26 mins. Available at: http://www.archaeologychannel.org
    Film: America’s Stone Age Explorers (2004). Nova. 60 minutes.

    Mormon Beliefs about Native American Ancestors

    Henetz, P. 2004. DNA research and Mormon scholars changing basic beliefs. USA Today July 26.
    Southerton, Simon G. 2004. Losing a Lost Tribe: Native Americans, DNA, and the Mormon Church. Signature Books.

  70. “Nice trick, trying to equal the church and the people. It doesn’t fly, however.”

    Actually, it does fly. Members of the church–as individuals–donated to prop 8, not the church as a corporation. Anyone with a little sense can make the distinction.

  71. Not trying to shut you up. Just pointing out the fact that your story has holes. Too many holes, in fact.

  72. The Mormon owned media outlet, the Deseret News, which still exists to this day, wrote about the Mormon support of the Nazis. Here are the original copies of these newspaper articles from 1933 and 1936. These are original Deseret News Issues scans from 1933 and 1936:

    http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=Aul-kAQHnToC&dat=19360125&printsec=frontpage
    The Mormon owned media outlet, the Deseret News, which still exists to this day, wrote about the Mormon support of the Nazis. Here are the original copies of these newspaper articles from 1933 and 1936. These are original Deseret News Issues scans from 1933 and 1936:

    http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=Aul-kAQHnToC&dat=19360125&printsec=frontpage

    http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=Aul-kAQHnToC&dat=19331209&printsec=frontpage

    This isn’t a conspiracy, but a well hidden fact by the Mormon church itself. Sometimes organizations and people really are “that” bad. Not sure of any “conspiracy theory” where someone is able to provide links to the original news story written by an affiliate of the accused, where the affiliate praises the accused behavior. I guess this is an interesting observation for how America works today, I am not sure I understand why you would want to live in ignorance of blatantly obvious truths like the news article I’ve posted, but it will eventually be our demise. Things like this have happened throughout nearly every continent, throughout all of world history. Just as a heads up, there really are organizations in the world who’ll tell that they are “good christian” bipartisan people, but at the end of the day they are ravaging wolves. This is just one example.

  73. Terry tries to paint the mormons as god’s chosen and Utah as the promised land. I am just guessing, but I think Terry is a dyed-in-the-morman. I too lived in SLC
    as a young boy in the 60’s and it was not as rosy as Terry paints it. My family started a restaurant and we had a nice house on a mountain side over looking SLC. Then came the mormons. Eager to help and to please. All was fine until my parents rejected the idea of converting to mormonism. I remember to this day when my two brothers told us how they were shunned by the mormon kids in high school, after a while the mormons no longer solicited our business. We lost the business, our home, finally we moved away. I still think of Utah from time to time, SLC is a pretty place and Utah a pretty place. But the mormons just leave bad taste in my mouth to this day.

  74. Again not true. If they gave “through” the church, the church gave.

    The money went to the church… the church disbursed the funds. I think that anyone who knows your church knows that people aren’t as free, and don’t really have much of a choice when it comes to giving to your church. The same as the dominionist churches, where if you aren’t giving up to half of your money, you get harassed by the church (and even if you do pay, they push you for more).

    We don’t call churches like yours a cult for nothing. Coercive religious movement – that’s the latest “official term” for churches like yours. Pay lip service to “freedom”, but re-define it in such a way that it’s not really freedom.

  75. Nope. No holes at all. Just proof that Mormonism is quite evil towards non-Mormons, just like the dominionists are towards others. In other words, Mormonism is a cult, a “Coercive Religious Movement” even as the dominionist churches (and the movement itself) is a cult.

    Others have started speaking up about how evil your “church” is to those who aren’t Mormon and who will NEVER convert. Too many people have seen your church as it is for you to get away with lying or denying the testimony of people who have experienced that evil first-hand.

    Instead of trying to protect your church, work to change it for the better. That is what I wish you’d do. You’ll never shut me up or change my mind. Try to make your church more Christian (in being TRULY Christian). I’ll bet that if you do, however, you will quickly join the ranks of the ex-Mormons, the walkaways from the Mormon church (but probably more of a throwaway).

  76. I’ve heard a couple of times now how angry the REAL Jews get at the Mormons, especially when they get called “Gentiles” in Utah.

    One time was from a Jewish friend of mine who experienced it. They denied him his own heritage while claiming it for themselves. He’s not too happy or friendly with them.

  77. Glad to meet someone else who had similar experiences from the same general time period!

    My parents attended a Christian church (either Methodist or Episcopal, probably Methodist), and from what I remember being told, the Mormons in the area kept trying to get that church shut down and gone, so they’d be the only game in that town.

    The non-Mormons tried to stick together because they were so hostile. According to something my mother told me a few years ago, not once would a Mormon help us even in emergencies… because we were non-Mormons. In fact, we had to buy our milk from a dairy out in the middle of the desert, because it was the only non-Mormon dairy in the region. The Mormon dairies wouldn’t deal with my folks (and the few Mormon stores that WOULD, charged much more for the same item).

  78. This is ridiculous! I am a member of the Mormon church and if anything have been frustrated because we do not come out and support a specific candidate. With every political cycle local church leaders read from their pulpits a letter from the First Presidency reconfirming the church’s political neutrality.

  79. We don't have a male-dominated anything. My husband is equal to me in every way and that is what is taught in the LDS church. They have the priesthood, we have the relief society.

  80. BTW I am very patriotic. My house is drapped in flags every where you turn and other Marine Corp veteran memorabilia as well as tons of my friends and family have faught to give you your freedom to bash us like this. shame shame!

  81. Sounds to me like  y'all are blaming the church because the people in it are messed up. Man everyone is human and everyone makes mistakes but the teachings of the church are perfect. It is up to the individual to chose to follow them or not. They will have to answer to God just as you will one day. I can't stand when people generalize an array of people before they even think.. which is what I am SURE is happening here. I guarentee all the people that are bashing the religion have never even tried to study the doctrine. All I see are people that are scared of the truth.
     

  82. Erica, just wanted you to know that NONE of the members of the church are paid for their services, we are NOT hired or fired, we all VOLUNTEER our time to be whatever we need to be to help others. We are a chuch or service. period.

  83. Which truth? The 5000 religions that came before the one you like, the 4 or 5 major religions alive at the moment? Which god? How many gods?

    Nothing is perfect

  84. Despite the fact you sound like a loon, your response to me has nothing to do with the subject. Drapping a flag around yoursewlf doesnt make you an American patriot or any more or less of an American. Just ebcuase you like war and killing doesnt mean a thing to me.

  85. Shiva fighting for your freedom and serving this country does not sound american to you??? wow… makes me sad to know that so many of my family and friends have lost their lives so you can sit around here and bash them for the religion they choose and that you know nothing about and apparently neither does the author of this article. yet you have this opportunities because of us.
     

  86. Estes they sure did over here in Alabama, they claimed complete neutrality. I never got or heard anything that said vote for mitt…. this guy and his followers (obviously a cult) are just "preaching" their nonsense to confuse the public about the truth.
    Just thought I would open all your minds a little and let you realize that is exactly what you sound like. the same things you are trying to say us mormons are.
     
     

  87. oops meant to post this here
    "Estes they sure did over here in Alabama, they claimed complete neutrality. I never got or heard anything that said vote for mitt…. this guy and his followers (obviously a cult) are just "preaching" their nonsense to confuse the public about the truth.
    Just thought I would open all your minds a little and let you realize that is exactly what you sound like. the same things you are trying to say us mormons are."
     

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