Another State Joins The Republican Transvaginal War On Women

We women are told to relax about the War on Women, because of course, the fight is over. Virginia will not be shoving a state-mandated and medically unnecessary condom clad tranducer up every woman’s vaginal canal who wants an abortion. Wow, what a win.

Not so fast.

They’ve moved on to Pennsylvania now. While the national boys natter on about how birth control is evil on the GOP Presidential stage, their cohorts and whispered VP hopefuls (Virginia’s McDonnell) are busy trying to shove state mandated transvaginal ultra-sounds up women’s vaginas.

Perhaps if you’ve never had a transvaginal ultrasound, this only sounds intrusive. But I can assure you, it is in fact often quite painful. Imagine you had a muscle that only opened to give birth and once a month to let the lining of your innards shred, both of which caused significant pain, the former being likened to passing a kidney stone but worse.

Now, granted, the camera isn’t pushing past the cervix, but ramming up against it trying to catch an image of the above nestled uterus and her contents, also found with the pain-free abdominal ultrasound that doesn’t provide the same level of detail but is used in pregnancies all of the time. I’m sure you can agree that for a non-medically necessary procedure, for the boys to pick the one that is more invasive and hurts the most is upsetting to some of us who prefer to avoid pain (and thus have not voted Republican in quite a while).

The bonus of the transvaginal ultra sound is that it does require the stirrups and the spread legs that we realize excite many men; our vulnerability and humiliation is a pleasure to some of them. We know. We see the movies, the photographs, and now the legislation. This is your basic male domination porn legislation. No different.

The boys in Pennsylvania want to do at a state level what the national Party has been unable to accomplish on a federal level. Perhaps they’re hoping to fly under the radar better than the boys of Virginia, led by Governor McDonnell, who is widely rumored to be a possible Mitt Romney Second. McDonnell et al wanted Virginian women to spread their legs and have this probe stuck up them prior to having an abortion. Women in Virginia have likened this to mandated rape (if this excites you, please stop reading now and either seek help or run for office as a Republican).

Granted, you only get that reference if you have indeed HAD a transvaginal ultrasound. I have, and I concur. But the boys making these laws have never had one and apparently never took a loved one for this procedure either. This speaks volumes about their characters and level of intelligence. What next – will they mandate a painful test before a triple bypass procedure because “God” thinks heart failure is a moral weakness?

Perhaps you thought this fight was over, because the Virginia men were made a laughing stock for their willful ignorance. But no, this fight is far from over. Right now, a similar but even worse bill is poised to strike Pennsylvania women courtesy of the Pennsylvania House of Representatives (HB1077). This one mandates that the image screen be turned toward the woman’s face, though she will be allowed to avert her eyes (so kind). 113 of the 203 representatives have already signed on to the bill. There are several alarming factors involved here:

One, the men clearly have no idea what they’re talking about but this doesn’t seem to stop them on any other issue and certainly isn’t stopping them now.

Two, they’re supposed to be for small government and yet they are pushing for Vaginal Panels mandated by the state (I see your imaginary Death Panels and raise you Real Vaginal Panels – now tell me who is the Nanny State?).

Three, it’s clear that the desire is to shame women seeking an abortion and to inflict pain upon them deliberately (as if abortion were not painful enough both physically and mentally).

Four, our vaginas are not public space and not open for business, no matter what Republicans wish was the case.

Five, this all stems from Republican belief in their own version of the Bible and is akin to me declaring that my God inferred that jock itch was immoral, hence all men who have jock itch must be subjected to not just the pain of jock itch, but say the threading of a camera up their urethra (that is basically what the t-v ultra sound does) so they can see the results of their misdeeds and feel bad (not for any medical purpose) about themselves.

Six, not once in all of the legislation across the nation has a Republican introduced any sort of bill designed to get men to stop having sex with women or control themselves or take responsibility for the result, and yet they continue to punish women for having the ability to make a baby.

Seven, apparently these boys know so little about the female reproductive system and the usage of birth control and the definition of abortion as should shame them. FYI, birth control is often used for other medical conditions like hemorrhaging and all pregnancies that end prior to birth are medically referred to as abortions. Some are elective procedures and others are spontaneous. (See the women in jail in America right now for having a miscarriage).

A primer is clearly needed for the boys. Pregnancy is what happens after the sperm meets the egg and they make a fetus. I see a lot of attempts to control how the fetus is treated and attempts to regulate the egg, but zero attempts to regulate the sperm. Why is that? If the fetus rules but having a baby out of wedlock ruins the family (see GOP debate), then isn’t the logical step to regulate sperm?

We know from science (forgive me, it’s habit) that it is men whose hormonal levels are surging in prime time. So far, the boys in charge have tried to deal with this problem by shaming women who have a baby out of wedlock and denying her entrance into society.

Sometimes the men feel this pressure as well, and so the truth here is ugly and unspoken — but the women in this country (who are being largely silent on this issue) know the truth. We are the ones who clean up after the men’s sperm. We are the ones who take the pleading, begging, sobbing evangelical teen for an abortion so that her entire life isn’t ruined by shaming. We are the ones who take our girl friends to the ER when their ectopic pregnancy is threatening their life. We are the ones who deal with the “mess” of unwanted pregnancy and even wanted pregnancy, too often alone. We are the ones too often who deal with childcare and are too often left financially destitute after a dead-beat dad runs off to get remarried and then runs as a Christian conservative Republican on family values. Yes, we know the troubles because we clean up the messes.

Good men are right there, in the thick of the mess and chaos and pain and love, but there are a lot of not so great men in this country as well. And it appears that they have either all migrated toward government positions or perhaps the percentage of good to bad is as dismaying as it appears.

How many of these men in the Pennsylvania and Virginia legislatures had a sexual partner outside of marriage? How many of them never asked if she was on the pill or took any responsibility for birth control? How many of them had a partner get pregnant outside of wedlock? How many of them have had a partner get an abortion?

These are the questions that need to be asked of these Republican men. They are most definitely OUR business. For they have made our bodies’ their business in the name of the sacred fetus. A fetus, we recall, is comprised of two parts. It’s time for the sperm to stand up and take responsibility.

I hereby call on the women in these gentlemen’s past to stand up and speak out. Let us all know how they handled the issue of premarital sex, birth control, and unwanted pregnancy. Is there a bastardized baby out there, born to one of these Nanny Men? If so, is he taking financial and emotional responsibility for this child? If not, what happened to the Glory of the Fetus?

Republicans declared war on women a while ago and in this war, there are many casualties and war crimes of which no one seems to care. Women sitting in prison for a miscarriage (an uncontrollable bodily function and NONE of their damn business). Women having what amounts to a huge dildo with a camera in it shoved up their vaginal canal in order to appease the sick needs of Republican men to humiliate and shame them in the name of “God” for wanting control over their bodies.

If Republicans keep this up, Independent and even many Republican women will band together with Democrats. We might go all Lysistrata on them.

Keep it up, Republicans. The sleeping giant of the majority of American voters is awakening.

Note to Republican men: American women will not be shamed out of our power. We will not allow you to define the boundaries of our medical care. We will not allow you to inflict your perverted religious beliefs onto our bodies in the form of what amounts to rape by state. We will not allow you to use our bodies to humiliate us just because you have power and control issues coupled with vast insecurities and psychological impotency issues. You have messed with the wrong group of people. We have the power, we are the majority, and we will not accept even the possibility that you wanted us to be subjected to such invasive, unnecessary medical treatment.

You lost us at hello, Republicans.

Update: Similar bills are being presented in many states, including but not limited to Alaska and Illinois.

Image: cancer.osu.edu

100 Replies to “Another State Joins The Republican Transvaginal War On Women”

  1. I for the life of me cannot understand why a whole new generation of women are having to fight an insane group of ignorant little boys whose rite of passage was to act like a perverted asshole to some poor victim (Rand Paul’s Aqua Buddha party game). Where did these cretins come from and what kind of a woman bore such ingrates? So, they think this is OK to do to their own mothers, daughters…oh their wife is “property” so that’s OK? Do they dare to understand what they’ve unleashed? Do they think women are asleep, vulnerable and will just be good sports toward these sickos new little games? When are these cretins going to reach back under their rocks and start screaming “femi-nazi” at women, throwing rocks at little girls like the ultra-orthodox in Israel?

    Oh, I forgot; this really isn’t about women, it’s about removing that “black man” from the white house by inflicting pain on half the voting populace…now, it all makes sense!

  2. In 1978, I was a bench assembler at a plant that made the early fetal ultrasound monitors. Though doubtless primitive by today’s standards, they gave satisfactory resolution through the use of an electronic stethoscope that was held against the patient’s abdomen, NOT inserted up her vagina. I’m not a doctor, but I can see no legitimate use for the latter outside of detecting conditions like placenta paevia, abnormal presentations, and the like, where there is reason to suspect them. This sounds like nothing but a slightly sanitized mandate for corrective rape.

  3. More insight on that a-fetus-is-a-human-being thing (because god pops a soul in at the moment of conception, according to the best Medieval Roman Catholic thinking):

    http://crookedtimber.org/2012/02/18/things-i-have-learnt-from-and-about-ivf/

    “I believe more firmly now that an embryo is a step along the way to becoming a human, but it’s not a human. It’s a possibility. And a real, live human woman in all her flaws and situational complexity is infinitely more important and deserving of consideration than the mere possibility of one.”

  4. The TV is used when looking for cancer, etc – not used to determine pregnancy. Only the GOP wants to use it thus. Normal procedure for pregnancy (not for abortion) is abdominal ultra sound, which is pain free and not intrusive. There is no reason why they want this TV us other than the obvious.

    Transvaginal ultrasound may be done for the following problems:
    • Abnormal findings on a physical exam, such as cysts, fibroid tumors, or other growths
    • Abnormal vaginal bleeding and menstrual problems
    • Certain types of infertility
    • Ectopic pregnancy
    • Pelvic pain
    Transvaginal ultrasound is also used during pregnancy to:
    • Evaluate cases of threatened miscarriage
    • Listen to the unborn baby’s heartbeat
    • Look at the placenta
    • Look for the cause of bleeding
    • Monitor the growth of the embryo or fetus early in the prgnancy
    • See if the cervix is changing or opening up when labor is starting early

  5. I agree with the point of the article, but Sara Jones clearly writes in a sexist tone, making many general comments about men in general. I guess I can take some sexist insults for the “Team” if it helps the cause.

  6. And Illinois HB 4085, titled Ultrasound Opportunity Act It provides women the opportunity to submit themselves to a Transvaginal Ultrasound.

    The bill was heard before the Illinois House Agriculture Committee. As Illinois Rep. Deborah Mell, a Chicago Democrat, asked, “We’re not talking about abortions for cows and pigs, right? We’re talking about women?” So forget second-class citizens! Could Right-Wingers be anymore blatant that they consider women little more than chattel?

  7. In case you didnt expect the spanish inquisition, its here.

    Pennsylvania is now stepping into this are as well. These Personhood people have groups in every state and the GOP reps are going right along with them

    Time to vote left ladies and gents

  8. RIGHT ON Sarah!!!! I am just one man of the multi-millions of men who totally AGREE WITH YOU. This is an excellent article…Thanks.

  9. Fetal heartbeat is normally detectable through the ordinary external ultrasound procedure. As for threatened miscarriage, it sounds as if this rude invasion would be likely to precipitate one.

  10. And the all men teams that are making up these invasive games for women to play, is that sexist?

  11. I’m sure that’s a possibility and yes, the fetal heartbeat is usually easily found in regular ultra sound (abdominal). The list is a medical list of the reasons they might use TV ultra sound, in the case when the abdominal is not sufficient. It is usually used for cancer, polyps, etc screening and sometimes used with dye.

  12. Thanks Rod. There are many good men in this country who support women’s rights – it’s always wonderful to hear from them on these matters.

  13. Seriously, you libtard women need to stop whining about this because every time you open your filthy, uppity mouth, you make yourself sound moronic.

    Seriously, who knows more about a vagina than a good-ol’, family values, god-fearing, no premarital sex having, gay-sex-obsessed conservative man?

    Seriously, you feminazis need to stop spreading your dumb, radical belief that women are people too. If god wanted you to be equal he would have created you first.

  14. Because they think that ALL WOMEN are stupid weak ignorant empty headed and not independent thinking at all..like the GOP RW WOMEN who watch FOX instead of listening to God’s wisdom instead of these LIARS! Where are these RW women? Why are they NOT screaming at the top of their lungs at these men/no..COWARDS! They expect you to be an idiot just like Sharon Angle, Sarah Palin, Nikki Haley…any of them ..all of them! What kind of women legislatures allow this? Where are our women congressional representatives? Our women senate representatives? Our women HOUSE representatives? This is sheeer insanity what they’re getting away with. And Pennsylvania???? One of the poorest jobless states??? WTH???? But I guess these men think probing a womans vagina is more important than a job, eating, benefits. YOU RW PEOPLE NEED TO WAKE UP ALREADY..enough of this!

  15. There are two endangered species in their death throes, thrashing about, struggling to survive and dominate this country.
    1. Old privileged white men.
    2. OT religionists

    They’re on their way out, and they want to take us with them. They will lose this war and all the other social wars they have started, but it will take vigilance and time to put them to rest.

  16. Hmmm. Didn’t understand your point with this one Shiva. Brian wasn’t arguing the fact that these repugs are sexist. He is under the impression that Sara was stereotyping and over generalizing ALL men. I don’t think she was (stereotyping men ), and she clearly made a distinction.

  17. Someone tried this “man was created first, so he is superior” interpretation of the Bible in a discussion. My response. “God didn’t get it quite right the first time and then there was woman.” Of course I believe none of either statement but I do believe the Bible can be interpreted the way you want.

  18. I heard this tidbit many, many years ago and I don’t remember where, but it just always stuck and I think about it every time I hear these GOP women haters. “If men were the ones to become pregnant, birth control would be an ammendment to the Constitution”.

    Great article Sarah!

  19. What fools these so-called “men” have proven themselves; yet, like a plague of pesky flies, they just won’t stop . No matter how stupid they appear, they just keep attacking.

    This is straight out of The Handmaid’s Tale. And I just can’t express how badly embarrassed I feel to be living in a country dominated by these incredibly strange people. Do they not realize the entire world is watching them? With that in mind, why aren’t other nations stepping in to help stop this madness? These threats are SERIOUS and they’re quite REAL. Perhaps it’s time to make an appeal or request.

  20. It’s funny you mention The Handmaid’s Tale, because that is the book I too, think of every time I read another one of these articles. And it is scary.

  21. I didn’t sense any “tone” of sexism whatsoever. Nor did I read where she made any generalities toward men “in general”. She wrote a powerful piece. If a powerful piece can be construed as “tonally sexist”, then so be it. I guess the truth (in this article anyway) can often hit hard; therefore, easy for some people to feel as though they’ve been slighted. Jeepers – wut’r’ya s’posed to do?

  22. Sarah, MOST men in this country support women’s rights. I think one of the major points that all these articles are making on this site is that these dominionist nut cases are not in line with the majority of Americans. That doesn’t make them any less of a threat though, and I’ve pointed out many times that since they control a significant percentage of the republican voters, that makes them reeaal dangerous.

    For the majority of the civilized world though, the debate is done. Most of us have signed on to certain enlightened and rational ideas. This is the way the world is going and people aren’t all of a sudden smack themselves on the head and say ” Dang! those domionist/fundies were right all along!”

  23. These sick republican fucks can inflict all the pain,humiliation and deprivation they want..We will remember it was them and not this kind, thoughtful and above all intelligent President.

  24. Can we get the United Nations and Amnesty International to declare the Repubs a hostile terrorist hate group?

  25. I can’t help thinking these lunatics have themselves read it; and then went on to think, Hey! Now there’s an idea!

    Next thing we know, one of them will be elected. Then, their “chosen one” and his groups of guerrillas will hijack and kill all dissenters … Then, whalla! We find ourselves written even deeper in the pages of Atwood’s cautionary work.

    I have to say, Margaret’s story premise seems even more prescient and spot on than ever before.

  26. LOL. I can feel the sharp pain upon your forehead and hear the sounds of pictures crashing and plaster falling from your wall … from beating your head against it. OH! But wait! The pain is MINE! And those are MY pictures crashed against the hardwood flooring!

    Sorry. Never mind :D

    But seriously – who would’ve thought we’d ever be faced with such dangerous minds?

  27. Thank you for writing such a kick-a$s article! I cannot agree with you more! I am putting this one up everywhere and hope that women will take the time to read it. So many are sitting silent right now. But I am not!

  28. Fantastic article Sarah! I have been screaming about this since I have learned about Virginia! It is difficult for me to wrap my head around this. Even more difficult to understand just how this country has allowed the religious beliefs to become even a tiny consideration in our law making process! Aside from signing every petition possible, flodding every site with related articles and placing ignored calls to state offices, I ask what can I do? It frustrates me that it seems as though no one is listening! There must be more that a woman who holds no political office can do which will have more of an impact! Any suggestions Sarah?

  29. Listen folks, that procedure will not be nearly as painful as the actual abortion itself. You entered through the vagina to become pregnant didn’t you. You will enter through the vagina to abort the pregnancy. Really, seeing your beautiful baby in your womb, seeing its heart beat, it’s trusting, tiny fingers. Do you really think that hiding your face from what you are about to kill will stop you from crying afterward? Do not think that you will never regret it. Even a raped woman knows she has killed a part of herself. Life is not as damn simple as you are attempting to make it seem. Killing is not a god given right. Killing life, is and always will be..killing life.

    As far as I am concerned it should be illegal to abort any fetus without the procedure, you do need to be completely informed of what you are about to do. Like it or not.. How can it be informed consent if you do not see for yourself first hand that THIS IS A LIFE.

    I firmly do believe in women’s rights though. I get a little tired of always being grouped in with the pro choice crowd.

  30. Tsk, tsk, tsk, comrade…you’re letting your self wallow again.

    A real ‘Merikan stands up and pulls out, like Little Ricky who, probably sings “You gotta’ know when to hold’m, know when to fold’m…” right before he does his gentleman-like self-serving, opportunistic, slimy little patriotic act. I’d like to see him take some leadership and demonstrate how superior to his woman, right in front of gawd and country! I’m sure that alone would shut everyone up!

    And, by the way, hasn’t gotten his 53 year old wife “preggers” in 4 years and counting. Either his little blue pill ain’t a’ working or he’s got a cheatin’ heart or he has no desire to wear that sweater vest to bed for her AGAIN!! I would check his hands for callouses too…maybe he needs some Nivea, bless his little heart…

  31. This article is a rant that is meant to sensationalize without doing anything like checking any actual facts. Transvaginal ultrasounds have been proposed to be used not as a means of torture or rape but because that is the method used by OBGyn’s in EARLY pregnancy (the typical time one receives an abortion). More fact checking would show how commonly used during any early pregnancy without pain and no harm to mother or fetus. The author may have had this procedure done outside of pregnancy and noticed pain but it was probably due to whatever reason was causing the need for an ultrasound in the first place. I had the procedure done with a wanted pregnancy. It was not painful and it made a phenomena occurring inside my body become more real when I could actually see my baby’s heartbeat. That is what is truly scary to the author and others. The moment a woman my actual view it as a life instead of cells you can’t see.

  32. So basically speaking, you are all for the government(read: a bunch of men) forcing people to have one. Duly noted.

  33. What you are believing in is the right of men to force women to have the procedure needlessly. That is not for being for women’s rights

  34. “Trusting, tiny fingers”, puwleezzzz. Just guessing here, but probably the only reason you “claim” to be pro-choice, is because at one time either you or someone close to you found your/themselves in the exact same predicament as millions of other women. Abortion has been a common – very often necessary and even moreso desired – procedure since the beginnings of time. So called “regret” probably was never heard of, simply because it was accepted as a normal fact of life; as well as a better option than say, that of dropping newly a hatched infant into a well or bottomless lake. When midwives were the proper norm, women ingested herbal abortifacients to expel those, as you call it, “babies”. As an aside: I sometimes wonder why it is that you people don’t refer to embryos as “infants”/”toddlers”/”teenybops” or for that matter, “girls”/”boys”/”men”/”women”, seeing embryos are “people” in your minds and seeing you don’t offer any distinction – when it comes to human development, anyway: if it were a dog, a deer, a dandelion or cob of corn, you would easily – err, hopefully – be willing and able to make – even accept – the distinction between the freshly fertilized egg or the seed that took root. Anyway, way before male physicians even began to think about strong-arming their way onto the scene, and way before the fundies learned how easy (and fun!) it was to impose their mythological ideals upon women, while all the while sadistically hen-pecking them to death for either daring to enjoy sexual relations with men, or otherwise daring to protest a detested intercourse and subsequent pregnancy, abortion . Your assumption that women somehow mourn an abortion is absurd. Having known at least twenty friends and acquaintances that have had abortions, not one has ever suffered regrets – except, perhaps, for that of the guys they had sex with. Which brings to mind Sarah Jones’s question: why don’t you people direct any of your hostility toward the men who impregnate women? Why are they, in your easily misled minds, so easy to excuse?

  35. This is a warrant, seeking government approval for unnecessary, but moreseo, UNWANTED and UNWELCOME vaginal penetration. That, by all definitions, is RAPE. Because there’s modern technology, at their service, does not somehow make it moral and right!

  36. I read the “pro-life” comments on this thread, and I’m reminded of what I read from a person who worked at an abortion clinic.

    She said that in every case when it was an evangelical/”Pro-Life” person, they at least mentioned that their situation was different and they NEEDED the procedure. She also said that sometimes (fairly often as I remember) got rants about how the “Good Christian’s” situation was different than the other “sl*ts” and “trailer trash”.

    She also said that at her clinic (in the south), there were more “pro-life” customers than not, and that was why so many of the women would cover their heads – so they wouldn’t be recognized by their friends and companion “pro-lifers”.

    Hypocrisy at it’s finest.

  37. Deb, there are a lot of things we can do. Sign petitions, call your representatives, tweet, share on FB, articles and petitions and your thoughts on the issue, join the FB group linked above which has a side bar of links you can join up in your state, and mostly — keep speaking up. Talk to your friends and family about the issue. Be heard.

    Re your feelings about the article – thank you – it’s a two-way street; I love hearing from women who feel as you do. It’s empowering to remember that we are NOT alone, we are the majority in this country, and we have a voice. #solidarity

  38. I’m afraid you don’t understand the procedure. It has nothing to do with being “fully informed.” An ultra sound is not required in order to determine pregnancy, but if it were, and if religious leaders wanted to impose their morality (or lack thereof, as it turns out, quite a percentage of religious followers and even leaders have availed themselves of an elected abortion though they don’t think others should have that right) upon citizens and in the doing they felt the woman needed to see an ultra sound image, they could easily use the ultra sound method used for pregnant women, which is the abdominal method.

    The fact that you think the TV method is necessary demonstrates that you have never seen the images from the abdominal method and don’t understand the issue.

    As for the pain involved, your thinking seems to be if you’re going to be in a lot of pain, why not double down on it? that makes no sense for a logical person, but it does bring up the issue of why exactly elected abortions are often done without anesthesia. And if you would like the answer to that, ponder this: if they are done for medical reasons, they are usually done with anesthesia.

    That leads us right back to the issue at hand of intentionally inflicting pain in order to make a point. And that is sick any way you cut it.

    As for your moral ground, you are standing on an obvious mountain of moral fallacies. If a life is always a life, why is it that a woman’s life is nothing? If her life is at stake and she needs an abortion to save her life, why are you putting the fetus above her life? Who gave you that authority to decide whether another human being should live or die? Pebbles of fallacies: The “life” of a fetus that is unable to sustain itself outside of the womb is more important than the pre-existing human carrying said fetus.

    These are a few of the complicating issues that make this issue what it is, but none of them suggest that the state has the right to inflict MORE pain and an unnecessary medical procedure. Perhaps you ought to ponder the precedent being set here.

  39. Sarah this was such a brilliant post! I’ve been wondering where’s the outcry by womanhood? This isn’t really about whether you believe in abortion or not. This is about the GOP who claim they believe in limited government having a total major over reach of government in the most private personal areas of our lives without any responsibility for their roles in what they’re promoting and projecting. Since the midterm elections ushered in the Tea Party GOP leaders, there’s been a serious attack on women’s rights. It’s dangerous; it’s crazy and it’s WRONG! And what they ran on was a farce. This calls for a major standing up for our civil rights and a major sweeping “get out the vote” for democracy before these extremists take over our country and its progress over the years. This stuff is scary. It’s scary that any percentage of the country follows this kind of extreme leadership when we have a serious man of character and integrity already in the oval office. Obama 2012. Democracy in our Congress, Senate, State heads, and Supreme Court! Make sure your voter ID is in order. VOTE for freedom and democracy! Thanks again Sarah! America needs your voice!

  40. My sister had a seventy-year old friend who had to undergo a D&C for uterine bleeding; they gave her a general anesthetic. The same was true before Roe v. Wade when a woman had to have a dead fetus removed by the same procedure. Withholding anesthesia for an elective abortion can only be construed as punitive. So is this. As for you assorted Stepford Judas twunts, undergo pain and degradation if you want to, but don’t be so chickenhearted as to mandate it for others.

  41. Sorry, but I just can’t let this liberal bashing of Joan go on any longer.

    Joan is absolutely right! I just wanted you to know, Joan, that I’m with you, sister!

    The vaginal ultrasound was invented for a purpose and therefore when used, it’s clearly not a violation. Just like the plunger was created to unclog things, I’m sure when you’re constipated, you go to your doctor’s office and have some strange nurse stick a plunger in your ass and unclog it. Sooo totally not a violation of your body!!!!!

    Also, you are dead on correct, sister, when you say a life is a life is a life and that killing a life is killing a life. I’m 100% certain that a good Christian woman like yourself who values life has never, ever taken a life. I’m sure when your home got invaded by ants, you took the time put each and everyone of them outside, unharmed. I’m also sure that when your garbage can was infested with maggots, you painstakingly took the time to transport each one to a place where you knew they would individually thrive!

    Killing a life is killing a life…and I’m just glad you understand and practice what the Almighty has been teaching us his whole life.

    Praise you, Joan, praise you, for you are my sister!

  42. Midwives were often victims of the stake exactly because they knew herbal means of contraception, abortion, and easing childbirth. In Europe, rue, tansy, and European pennyroyal have long been known as abortificents, even though it required a skilled practitioner to use them safely. In the southern lattitudes of North America, it was known that a tisane of Turnera taken prior to midcycle would aid conception, while a strong decoction (a fisful of the fresh herb put in a pint of water and reduced to a third) of Eupatorium capillifoliatum would prevent it; the same strong decoction taken for five days post-midcycle acts as an emmenogogue. The “godly” couldn’t stand for women to have this knowledge.

  43. My son is 21. I remember having one of those ultrasounds and I nearly jumped off the table as it was hurting and I thought it would make me miscarry!

  44. Well…if you season them properly and pretend they’re rice.

    Ants, of course, are an expensive delicacy when coated with chocolate, but for the price of a Hershey bar set on the ground, you can have chocolate coated with ants, and it’s just as good.

  45. My gf grew up on the streets of Inchon, they practically lived on boiled silkworm larvae. But she says she doubts she could eat them now

  46. I can see that diverse views are not very welcome here, but I will try anyway. Before anyone doubts my credibility, I am a mother of three, have had many ultrasounds – both TV and abdominal – and, tangentially, all three pregnancies were unplanned, and all three deliveries were without drugs.
    Equality for women is very important to me, so I don’t appreciate those who try to dictate that I cannot be a feminist and consider a fetus a person; I am, and I do. I do not believe the two are incompatible, and I think it’s a shame that many vocal feminists reject, disqualify, insult, and ridicule those of us who dare to have a different view on whether or not a fetus is a person. Where’s the tolerance?
    To just speak on this specific issue, I really do not understand the outrage. None of the other moms I have spoken with has ever mentioned the TV u/s as even uncomfortable; to me, it is much less uncomfortable than using a tampon. But let’s say that’s not the point, and the point is that it’s someone *else* inserting it and someone *else* requiring it, that the nature of the violation in question is less physical than psychological. Okay. The speculum used during the abortion procedure is not at least as uncomfortable? But it’s a necessary part of the procedure, so you accept it, right? Why is it a problem to require one more step as part of preparation for this procedure? Why are women so angry about the requirement for medical professionals to provide them with MORE information? I can only presume that the outrage is at being forced to see something they do not want to see. And I don’t get it. If someone considering an abortion is a well-informed person making a fully informed decision, then why is having a quick peek at the area where the procedure will be done such an offense? In her case, nothing will change her mind anyway, and she is being shown only her own body. And if someone considering an abortion is not as well-informed – and there are many of these cases – because she is young or uneducated or being talked into aborting by a parent or partner – then all she is getting is more information. I do not support keeping women in the dark. I support women making fully informed decisions about their bodies and their futures. And I don’t understand why this one little procedure(sorry, it is so not a big deal in comparison to a) the abortion itself or b) the rest of the pregnancy and delivery) has some people so upset.

  47. You’re right fta:

    Good men are right there, in the thick of the mess and chaos and pain and love, but there are a lot of not so great men in this country as well. And it appears that they have either all migrated toward government positions or perhaps the percentage of good to bad is as dismaying as it appears.

    There is the distinction but even without that it is not the authors fault that republicans are pigs.

  48. “Everytime I open the paper,there’s another instance of theocratic encroachment on free society” ( Christopher Hitchens)
    Just about sums it up really.

    This whole tvu debacle, is simulataneously ludicrous and offensive. People who believe in a freaking sky fairy, think that belief means they’re entitled to do this to everyone else. It’s DISGUSTING

    And anyone who wants to get on a pious moral high-horse and claim it’s about protecting “innocent babies”. BULLSHIT That’s got NOTHING to do with it. They can just as well show a woman an ultrasound using the external abdominal method, they do NOT need to violate her with an optical-fibre probe/camera.

  49. SO basically you like playing the submissive female. You like being forced to do things that are needless. We got that the first time.

  50. No. It’s about being forced to have your cunt reamed by camera-weilding Pruritans. If you get off on it, do it. Don’t wish it on others, you self-righteous Stepford twunt.

  51. First…I do believe that a fetus is a person. My wife did and abortion was shoved down her throat when they thought our son was going to have severe deformities. It wasn’t offered kindly as an alternative. One resident doc went so far as to walk in read her chart and simply go..”Geeze with everything that’s going on why not have an abortion..um..I’m not from this state..what’s the cutoff date for them in Wisconsin anyway.?” all she had did look at me then point and the doc had me to deal with. We discussed abortion. We also discussed her giving birth to a child that might need to be on a ventilator for all of his short life. In the end she decided she wanted to go ahead with the birth. Our son turned out fine. They misread all the ultrasounds. The point is….SHE HAD THE CHOICE! And I was going to stand by her no matter what. Mourn our son with her if she chose abortion. Hold her hand and cry with her during the procedure, just as I held her hand during the labor. We never thought of our child as “the fetus”. Not even when she miscarried at 6 weeks with what she was sure was a daughter. Our boy was the only one she could have. I can only say, the hell a woman goes through giving birth,it should be her choice and I am former military man, pretty much an old fashioned guy…which includes respecting women as having one of the most important jobs, the hardest job ever thought of, being a mom. No matter what else a woman might do, she’s got that lifetime job too, unless she chooses otherwise. And it should be her choice. She puts her life on the line everytime she conceives. It is beyond me that men should try to butt their noses into a woman’s life like that. Like my wife’s life. Not their business, it’s mine and hers…whatever happened to the “sanctity of marriage” These fellas need to get out of my bedroom. my household and mind their own!!! If my daughter had lived, they would be minding hers too and I’d be twice as pissed. Man has a right to be angry for the woman he loves. She says I’m more riled about it than she is…

  52. Sorry got ticked and way off topic..if someone wanted to do this ultrasound on my wife…made it law…and she didn’t want it. I’d be mad…because my POV…its rape. Plain and simple.

  53. Theirs’ is a fascinating story, isn’t it? Can you imagine where we might be today, had foul -minded christians not burned them alive or hanged them? Not to mention them raiding and robbing their formulas and guidelines?

    I say we take this matter even farther by saying, “Bring back our midwives! Along with all of their exciting and wonderful MAGIC!

  54. I have been told by a Cherokee/Irish friend of mine that bee grubs are better, because they are sweet, but getting them is potentially a lot more painful.

  55. Well, let me ask you this: should we start mandating camera probes up and inside a man’s penis shaft and scrotum when he opts to have a vasectomy performed? And, because modern technology’s so goddamned awesome (especially those amazing teeny tiny spy cameras!), why don’t we start requiring camera’s inside everyone’s graves as well. That way, every strange, sick, and perverted asswipe (e.g., you people) who’s so inclined to see how “things” work and offer up their twisted theological bents, can have a say in someone’s death an decomposition as well: But, only women, mind you – because, their bodies are especially FASCINATING.

  56. Typical stepfor wife: Her hubby no doubt has a tiny little penis. These modern-day glass probes are probably the only sexual satisfaction she’s ever gotten.

  57. Epic, Sarah. Truly. I’ve been waiting for just such a rebuke. I’m a male, but this stuff affects me, too. Someday, women will rule the world and I just want them to remember I was on their side when they’re personal liberty was on the line. Your liberty and privacy are MY liberty and privacy.

    I’m better for having read this.

  58. Are you aware that the Religious Right is Succeeding in pulling off a Bait And Switch by throwing the Vaginal Ultrasound bill in with the, Fetal Personhood Bill, which is much More Destructive to Women’s Rights,???

    Yes, Vaginal Ultrasound is an Outright Assault on women’s rights, but think about it, if passed it would be a lesser issue overall. It would be relatively easy to reverse Vaginal Ultrasound at a later date.

    Fetal Personhood!! Declaring that a Fetus has full rights from conception on, is a much bigger issue. If passed Fetal Personhood will have the effect of being the catalyst for the ultimate undoing of Roe V Wade, and any future hopes of Women’s Reproductive Freedom Of Choice. Once passed Fetal Personhood will be Extremely Difficult to undo, if not impossible.

    For all the attention I see being given to Vaginal Ultrasound, I have not seen any resistance to Fetal Personhood Status in Virginia. This is not the time for giving quarter to the peripheral issue while the Heart Of The Matter passes Un-Noticed!

    Women’s Reproductive Rights are facing an all out assault that has been carefully calculated to result in an end run of Defeating Roe V Wade. Fetal Personhood will effectively create a platform designed to end any and all options a woman might have other than the Religious Right’s beliefs.

    We can already see that the plan is clearly to start with a stronghold GOP controlled State, like Virginia, then take that success and steamroll through the other states.

    The Religious Right is, and has been, waging it’s Home Grown Jihad on Women’s Reproductive Rights. Anyone who cares about Freedom Of Choice has no option other than to stop Fetal Personhood, along With Vaginal Ultrasound, Now.

    Don’t let the Wasp Bite while being Distracted By The Mosquito!!!!!!

  59. Did I meantion that I expected name-calling? Why do some people think the only people worthy of respectful treatment are those whose views align with their own? I will not disrespect you in return, but ask that you try to open your mind to consider that others’ viewpoints may have validity, too.
    No, I am sure you can understand that no-one enjoys doing things that are needless. However, there are many things we do on which our opinions may differ from others’ on what is helpful and what is not. Are sex ed programs in public schools needless? Some would say yes, because they choose to terach their kids at home according to their own beliefs/value system/schedule, and some would say they are absolutely necessary in the interest of giving young people more information that they might not be getting elsewhere. So do we have sex ed in schools? Yes. Is it unnecessary? Each person certainly has an opinion on that, however, public institutions will make laws and policies regarding such things, and we will be subject to these laws, whether or not we are female or “submissive”.
    And I’m not sure what you “got the first time”. This was my first post here, ever.

  60. Why is the name-calling necesary?
    I am wishing nothing on others – the question I posed was, why is this minor procedure, done in the interest of providing more information, such a big problem? Also, I am doubtful that most ultrasound techs are “Pruritans”. The ones I’ve had working with me have always been professional and complete respectful.

  61. Three insults in two sentences, the level of disrespect evidenced here is amazing. Could anyone possibly engage with what I wrote, rather than just venting their emotions?
    Insult and discredit; if I disagree with you, I certainly must be a (insert derisive comment here).
    I think we all should respect ourselves and each other more than that.

  62. Good question, thanks for at least addressing the topic before launching into insults!
    If the demographics of men oting for vasectomies were similar to those of women seeking abortions, then using technology to provide them accurate information might not be a bad idea! However, you do not have waiting rooms full of 14-year old boys brought in by their dads or girlfriends, scared and in a hurry to have a surgical procedure done in their reproductive system. It’s just not comparable.
    Yes, I understand that not every woman seeking an abortion is 14 and ignorant of exactly what is happening. Many, however, are very young and/or very misinformed. What is the harm in providing more information?
    I’ll respectfully ignore the rest of your comment, since it contins only the expected rage. I would ask, though, why do you feel the right to bully and use name-calling just because someone’s views are different than your own?

  63. Kimmie: I am not ashamed for respectfully sharing my experiences and views here and asking a question. Those are not things to be ashamed of.

    Here are some things to be ashamed of:
    answering respect with disrespect
    unloading anger onto strangers
    name-calling, bullying, insulting, ridiculing, and making assumptions about others

  64. It’s hard for me to understand how you don’t understand the justifiable rage women (as well as decent-minded men) feel about this patriarchal move to control the bodies of women. Likewise, it’s always been hard for me to understand how anyone could side with these patriarchal fools, whose primary aim is make women’s existence secondary or otherwise entirely negligible to that of a truly ugly little embryo (I can almost hear your ~gasp!~ of disbelief; but, maybe it’s time you practiced a little honesty in the matter – and here, you could start by recognizing the billboard babies to being that which they are: Actual, innocent babies who have been exploited by women-haters and fools). But still, at least we who support women’s fundamental rights to their own bodies have yet to resort to the same cold-blooded, calculated shootings, bombings, and non-stop harassment that so many of the women-hating men and women of the right-wing somehow find excusable and justifiable.

    As far as your assertion that I am showing disrespect: You’re right. Where it involves any right-winger’s obsession to disrespect and impose their collectively ultra simplistic, dishonest, and irrational idealistic views about women onto the psyches of American citizens, en masse, then “nice” no longer matters. Similarly, when the same twisted ingrates so boldly move to further degrade and control American women by seeking political office ONLY to enable them the ability to strong-arm and bully their one and only agenda item into enforcement of legislation, of which will effectively turn innocents into criminals, then “politeness” matters notta. How, in your own “pro-women” mind, do the behaviors of these wrong-headed, filthy-minded men, not resonate identically to that of the Taliban? Did you know that a good many faithful Muslim Taliban wives, just like the wives of American Christian conservo-nuts, support their husband’s obsessions to rule and exact punishment against other women in their society? Are we supposed to “respect” their positions as well? Do you? And do you think for a second that, if given this same type of machine (the vaginal probe), that Taliban men wouldn’t exploit it en masse?

    I think it’s interesting that what you find insulting here, in comparison to the non-stop insults (and non-stop threats to boot) from these politicians who have been working tirelessly to enact this legislation against us, is somehow more upsetting to you. For whatever reason, you refuse to recognize and listen to the warnings. For that, you’ll get no apologies from me.

  65. Describe for me what you feel “accurate information” is … then, explain why anyone should be forced to lower himself or herself to your way of thinking about the lives bazillion sperm cells … or, even one tiny little sperm cell – otherwise impossible to see if not for magnification.

    Accurate information? Yes. Ok, I’ll agree to that, so long as you’re honest, and you refrain from magnifying the size and structure of an embryo – even a fetus (did you know that, in accurate TRUTH, both are practically transparent and indiscernible to the naked eye?) That leaves us with … what? … absolutely nothing that can be seen with the naked human eye.

    What is your point regarding “scared” and “ignorant” 14-year-old girls? You people stand outside these clinic doors, yelling and screaming and calling them murderers, while wielding overblown posters and shoving dramatically over-sized fetus dolls in their faces. YOU, in mocking and belittling them, are the ones who are scaring them. Obviously, they’re there because they have made informed decisions. But you people can’t respect that, can you.

  66. Embryonic heartbeat can be detected as early as 6 weeks after conception (there is no actual heart before that), but not usually via abdominal ultrasound. Hearing the fetal heartbeat by that method is more successful by about 10-12 weeks (when the embryo has progressed to a fetal stage of development).

    If a woman is in a state of denial or fear, the period of time between 12 weeks and 16 weeks becomes crucial regarding anguish, pain, safety, and legality.

    If a woman discovers she’s gestating an unwanted pregnancy early on (misses a period, and does a home pregnancy test), if she “gets right on it” she’s one of those who has an embryo gestating. Not yet a fetus.

    A mandated ultrasound will be a waste of time and money at that point in time, if it’s the less invasive kind. The point has been made already about the painful more invasive ultrasound.

    Not only should women be rising up to protest ANY kind of pre-abortion mandated ultrasound — doctors should be, too. This Republican governmental intrusion is an insult to the entire medical profession.

    Unless you’re one of the 18 doctors in Congress who are Republicans.

    http://thehealthcareblog.com/blog/2011/01/13/doctors-in-congress/

  67. I always heard the saying as: “If men could get pregnant, then abortion would be a sacrament.”

  68. When a human embryo
    http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/comdesc/images/human_embryo.jpg
    resembles a cat embryo
    http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/comdesc/images/cat_embryo.jpg
    or a pig embryo
    http://cal.vet.upenn.edu/projects/10mm_pig_embryo/images/images/Pig10mm-X_05.jpg

    shouldn’t we be asking, “Does God imbue all embryos with a soul, or does He wait until the embryo is distinguishable as a human embryo before it gets a soul?”

    Here’s an example of how the Creationists/Christianists deal with evolutionary questions: http://www.christiananswers.net/q-eden/edn-c024.html

    …despite physical evidence: http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/comdesc/section2.html

    No wonder the Creationists/Christianists want to do away with science, higher education, and public education in general.

  69. Girls and boys, “Conservative Heart” is satirizing, and it seems has been successful at it.

    No real right wing nut job would refer to himself as “good-ol’, family values, god-fearing, no premarital sex having, gay-sex-obsessed conservative man” or use at least 10 button-pushing buzz words to arouse your ire. Not in one comment, anyway… ;-)

  70. Kimmie:
    You’re right, I do not (as I stated originally) understand the rage, because I do not see how it is “justifiable” or “patriarchal”, nor why you interpret it as a move to control the bodies of women. You interpret it as such, I understand that, but not everyone does.
    No gasps of disbelief from me, your statements about embryos are completely consistent with your views. I also support a woman’s fundamental right to her own body, absolutely. Alongside that, however, I recognize that when there is another human being involved, the situation is not so simplistic, so black and white. It’s no longer a woman and her body alone, it’s a woman’s body carrying another body. It’s my view that that other developing person deserves consideration. Consideration. Not top prority, not greater rights, but consideration.
    You apparently have labeled me “right-wing”, which is funny since you know nothing about me other than my view on this specific issue, but let me address your self-congratulatory remarks on how none of “you” have resorted to any shootings, bombings, etc. Just using your own logic as you outline it in the following paragraph, those who *have* resported to such reprehensible acts most likely think “nice no longer matters”. I find such actions horrifying, and it’s for the *exact same reason* I find the lack of tolerance here so disconcerting – it’s just exactly like racism and sexism, in that it (1)dehumanizes a person, (2)lumps them into a broad, inferior category, and (3)justifies disregarding their right to basic respect/rights. Can you not see that this is exactly what you are doing here, too?
    Apparently you are saying that my views are ultra simplistic, irrational, dishonest and idealistic. Can you explain what you mean by that? I would think that my view acknowledges a greater complexity than that of those who confidently pronounce their certainty that a human embryo/fetus is not a person, period. I acknowledge that we cannot know for sure, that there is ambiguity and the question is complex. There is nothing dishonest in this, in fact, I support being truthful with women about their bodies, choices, and health. Not manipulative, not sensational, not coercive, but truthful. Irrational? How? Idealistic? I’m more of a realist, actually. Which is why I don’t see the problem with showing images of a real embryo to a real woman in order for her to make a choice based on reality.
    I don’t agree with all – no, I don’t agree with any – American politicians, but just do this exercise in your mind and you may see the answer to your question: suppose infanticide by exposure were legal today in the US (it has been absolutely accepted and legal in many times and places through history, so this is no big stretch here). And suppose you truly believed that those infants should not be treated in that way. Would it be at all possible for you to support the right of other families to stuff their infants into containers and abandon them outdoors? Would you be able to say, “it’s their own business”? “Innocent” and “criminal” are not absolutes, they are definied by the culture and the laws of the land in question – and they can and do change! The “innocent” slave owner who killed or raped his “property” was also made into a “criminal” by changing laws – this is not always a wrong thing, can we agree on that?
    Regarding your comments on Taliban wives, I do not *know* and cannot confirm what you assert here, but there would be nothing surprising about a person being supportive of the cultural norms in their own culture. And…I never asked anyone to support my position, I asked for respectful interaction in this forum, because really, insults and demonizing get no one anywhere, unless someone feels a sense of satisfaction in putting others down. My assumption was that feminists – both women and men – should not be the kind of people who bolster their own sense of rightness by demonizing and belittling anyone too different from themselves.
    Taliban men using vaginal probes en masse? Yeah, I’m not even going to guess on that one, I have no idea, but is it relevant?
    Can you explain to me what the non-stop insults and threats the politicians are making against me are? Perhaps you perceive them as insults, but not everyone else does. Maybe you can specify. Also, what are the “warnings” you think I am refusing to recognize and listen to? It’s possible that I recognize and hear the same information you do, but do not perceive it as an attack or a threat. And I’m sure the fact that I dare to have a different view angers you greatly, but you know what? Name-calling will not change my views. Reasoned and well-supported information might.

  71. Reynardine:
    Can you please clarify the requirements for demonstrating that I am deserving of respect?
    The only offense I can see I’ve committed is holding a differing view. Is that disallowed in the “deserving of respectful interaction” category?

  72. Accurate information regarding a medical procedure? Well, that would include making sure the patient knows what part(s) of their body is being affected, where it is located, how it looks, how it will change as a result of the procedure, possible risks (including the documented statistical probability of those risks) of having vs. not having the procedure, at least. People who are younger, distressed, and/or less educated are less likely to already have learned this information on their own, independent of the health care provider.
    I don’t understand your comment “the lives bazillion sperm cells” – I think a few words are missing.
    Like you, I absolutely do not support any distorted or manipulated images being used. It would be completely unnecessary and dishonest. However, please be honest with your information – by just a few weeks past conception a human embryo is easily discernible to the human eye. The naked eye? Well, obviously, the embryo is surrounded by a lot of stuff, so instruments are needed in order to see it. Why is this relevant to the question?
    My point regarding scared and ignorant and yougn girls was that it is not unheard of to find them in waiting rooms for abortions, brought in by parents or boyfriends. It is, however, unheard of to find scared, ignorant, young boys in waiting rooms for vasectomies, brought in by their parents or girlfriends. It was your question and parallel I was responding to, illustrating that the situations are simply not comparable.
    I am not any part of the people you call “you people”, and it might be a good idea for you to check your prejudice. I have mocked and belittled no one. However, your belief that “obviously, they are there because they have made informed decisions” is based on what? Are you certain that every woman, regardless of her age, education, socio-economic background, has made an informed decision (or even a decision at all!) prior to entering a clinic? Really? I can think of at least three examples of high school classmates who considered abortions who prove that this question is much more complex than you are acknowledging.

  73. I agree. Why is having a different view and different opinion reason to be treated with disrespect? I am a self-proclaimed left wing liberal who happens to have more conservative views on this particular topic. I like to look at both sides on this issue because it is such a complex one and I like to comment when I see inaccuracies, misinformation and sensationalism used because it is not making a fair argument. Using name-calling and disrespect makes it appear that you are close minded and unreasonable which is no better than when right wingers use it. Strive To be open minded as you claim to be. Open minded means listening to both sides, not being open to only one’s own views.

  74. Another point made in the original article I’d like to address is the statement made that abortion already hard enough “physically and emotionally”. From my understanding abortion is a very painful physical procedure. So many are outraged by the “rape” caused by TV ultrasound. Whether I am for having it or not, the claim about how painful it is is inaccurate. Again, the reason TV ultrasound is recommended is because of how early the pregnancy is and how small the fetus is. It has nothing to do with men trying to subject our bodies to some horrible procedure. It is how any pregnancy at that stage is looked at. When I had one done to more accurately determine the age of the fetus I did not assume the intent was to subject me to a more painful and embarrassing procedure. It was what was appropriate for the time because the fetus is so small. The person who made a claim that it is a wand with a camera on it is false. It is a wand like he one used on the outside of the body but it has a different shape because of where it is placed. It is measuring sound waves which are then projected on a screen. The reason TV ultrasound is used at that stage is that it must get closer to the fetus to be able to measure. Once a fetus grows it is closer to the outside of the body so the abdominal ultrasound is used. These are facts that are left out of the article possibly by lack of information. I point it out only because it seems people are assuming the intent of its use is not based on actual scientific reason.
    Also my question about abortion being so difficult emotionally. Why is that? Is it because a person has to wrestle with the feeling that they are ending the life growing inside them? Is it because they are imagining what this child will be like? How hard or inconvenient it may be to raise this child? If it isn’t a life yet would there be such an emotional struggle? If I have a fetus inside me and I am injured and I try to do everything I can to save the life inside me does it make the one I am trying to save any more of a person than the one you are trying to end? Is the only difference the fact that one is wanted? Just wishing something isn’t real doesn’t make it not real.
    I am trying to appeal with reason and facts. If anyone would like to respond with either I would love to discuss. If you chose to respond with name-calling and anger then I assume you are not open enough to debate but are only responding with emotion and have no rational argument to make.

  75. What’s the point of responding to a person whose position is glossed over, not just by rightwing religious rhetoric, but also by their own bias and emotion? Someone else here on this board, commented that if YOU or anyone else has no problem submitting your body to the state and or federal government, then go for it. I’ll go further by saying, if it is your desire to be obedient and acquiescent, and allow the government the rights to become your master, then so be it. Meanwhile, do us a favor and tell your inglorious masters to leave the rest of us – the majority of women in this nation – alone.

    One more thing. Stop and honestly ponder some of these other perplexing questions (as opposed to what you believe constitutes a child): Considering the sheer numbers of Americans men and women who are disgusted and appalled at this proposed idea of government sanctioned RAPE (again, defined as UNWELCOME and UNWANTED, i.e. FORCED, vaginal, anal, or other body orifice penetration by a body part or object or instrument other than their own) – WHY do you suppose they persist? And, this authoritarian absurdity will cost us how much in tax dollars?? And, in the extreme yet very possible event that this legislation does pass (think airport full-body scanners), HOW will they deal with the fallout? Will this new totalitarian government hire armed examination room “special agents” to make sure we’re all in compliance?

    Are ya getting’ it yet?

  76. Some of us do not believe that a group of cells constitutes life, Peggy. Sorry that you are unable to see it that way.

  77. With regard to Lorelei’s comment (below): I wasn’t going to respond to this, but it’s been nagging at me for much of the day, so I may as well get it out. What bothers me is that, when in your comparison of rape and murder to abortion and your referring to a culture’s willingness to accept rape and murder as a norm, at its very essence you’re comparing two separate, and two very different organisms: one, a human being, and the other, a … well, not-so-human, being. Right? I don’t see how anyone can deny that. Regardless, it’s the same tired argument (potential vs real; nonhuman vs human; personal vs impersonal; private vs public) – which, were it not for technology that begs to be viewed and accepted as awesome and amazing, effectively allows a free-for-all invasion of something which otherwise might’ve been revered as personal and sacred. So, in turn, our society begins to allow people, utter strangers, to believe it is perfectly okay to meddle in the personal lives and what should be the private if not sacred bodies of a woman. Is it depersonalizing? Dehumanizing? Or both? Has technology worked then to effectively take something away from women that ordinarily would be off-limits? How much farther will this belief in technology that brings with it this newfangled demoralization and dehumanization go? Do you suppose, that, if it weren’t for this strange and inexplicable type of disrespect toward the existence of women on the whole, and this weird, backward-thinking modern-day societal “norm” that wants us to believe it’s perfectly okay to break into the lives of women and then burglarize and attempt to control our bodies, this would not even be an issue? And do you suppose, that, when certain people stop romanticizing the so called “life” of an embryo – or stop attaching significance to the imaginary life of a fetus, and instead try directing some of the same reverence and respect toward the life of the woman – especially the woman whose body will be forced to endure the undeniable hardships of giving birth to a child she didn’t especially want, and whose choice in the matter has been denied – then maybe this issue, like the south’s enslavement of similarly dehumanized Africans, will finally die?

    Finally, someone, somewhere on this board, mentioned that, if a man were able to become pregnant and opt for an abortion it would be regarded as a sacrament. I say, no, if men were able to get pregnant there would be an open market on newborn infants. You can bet that, as sure I’m sitting here at my laptop, men would find a way to package these “gifts” and capitalize on them. Think about it: In a way, that is EXACTLY what the supposedly benevolent adoption markets/agencies are doing with women’s actual babies. And, in return – as always – the woman who gave birth receives, if a pittance, then nothing; except for a lifetime of grief.

  78. I am not neccessarily for this proposed measure. I was just trying to point out some exaggerated and inaccurate claims made in the article. I would like people to make a decision on whether or not they support this based on facts and reason. I know most of the people here will disagree with the legislation because they are pro choice and anything other than a woman being able to walk in and just get one will be criticized. This has been proposed to see if women who see the child’s heartbeat will change their mind before ending the fetus’ life. It is not meant as a punishment. It calls for the use of TV ultrasound because that is what is used in early pregnancy for any woman. I was trying to respond to the sensationalism in this article. You raise a valid question about who has to pay for this. In fact it may also be a tactic used to discourage people from abortion by raising the cost. I was merely addressing the reason for us of TV ultrasound. So even if you disagree with the legislation I hope people disagree for other reasons than te author claiming it is sick Republican men who want to shove a large dildo with a camera Ina woman to shame and humiliate them. That is not accurate. As mentioned earlier it is a wand that is long(due to the technician having to hold onto it and try to leave personal space between them an the woman) but not very big in diameter so it is not designed to cause pain. Women have these done all the time for a variety of reasons. It also does not have a camera in it. It uses sound waves to measure things inside our bodies. If you do any investigation you will or read any factual articles you will see this. I understand an author’s use of sensationalism to get people outraged. I hope to provide some facts to help readers decipher some inaccuracies.

  79. I realize not everyone sees a group of cells as life. I just wonder when they do become life for you. At 4 months gestation? At 7 months gestation? I am curious when this change happens. If there is a change, what makes it all of a sudden become a life later? I am serious in asking this question because I really do no know what people think on this issue. And if there is a general belief what is that belief based on? Is there a reason that at a certain age it is not okay to abort—like after the lungs develop to a certain point. I just would like to try to understand others’ views on this.

  80. That brings to mind one of the other proposed government mandates – not written into the Virginia bill but expressed in the PA bill. That is, ALLOWING a woman to “avert her eyes” from the tv monitor.

    Ummm. So what, exactly, is the point? In Pennsylvania, anyway.

    Here you are, willing and eager to believe this type of procedure might somehow change a woman’s mind, if only she’d just look at the beating embryonic heart. Well, HOW is she going to SEE it, if she chooses NOT to look?

    Again: what’s the point of forcing this procedure?

    And what’s next for Virginia? Forcing women seeking abortion services to read approved scriptures from the christian bible? Maybe something out of Deuteronomy so as to inform her, that if she’s been raped or is not otherwise pure, chaste, and obedient, then she should be killed by stoning? Or is that particular method too archaic?

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